Scarlet Al
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Am I sensing sour grapes???
SA v All Blacks 1st August
- Thread starter Jenko
- Start date
dave_clark
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doubt it, the Aussies weren't playing :biggrin:
KML1
Ref in Hampshire. Work for World Rugby
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Have to say Im (a bit) with Ian on this one. Thought both YCs were harsh. Wonder if he got the wrong guy for the Botha YC - there did seem to be one player who was offside and then was invovled in a tackle. Either way, not sure a YC was the right call - pen yes.
On the NZ one, he clearly felt the ball was still in and acted accordingly. You know what it's like - you see breakdown and then scan for backs. Bet a lot of $ that at the moment the Acting 9 let go/touched it, he was looking elsewhere. Maybe, the guy should have asked if it was out?
Having said that - and again, I agree with Ian's original point, he didn't influence the result and that's always a good thing!
On the NZ one, he clearly felt the ball was still in and acted accordingly. You know what it's like - you see breakdown and then scan for backs. Bet a lot of $ that at the moment the Acting 9 let go/touched it, he was looking elsewhere. Maybe, the guy should have asked if it was out?
Having said that - and again, I agree with Ian's original point, he didn't influence the result and that's always a good thing!
Scarlet Al
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RE: Ian.
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You may not agree with me but there is no need to insult me by inferring that I am a descendant of the criminal colonies!!
At least in KML's post, its nice to see that there is some objectivity alive and well among NH referees when judging their own. :clap:
Too often I see the "we can do no wrong and everything's just fine here" line that pervades discussions about elite refs. :nono:
Scarlet Al
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You may not agree with me but there is no need to insult me by inferring that I am a descendant of the criminal colonies!!
At least in KML's post, its nice to see that there is some objectivity alive and well among NH referees when judging their own. :clap:
Too often I see the "we can do no wrong and everything's just fine here" line that pervades discussions about elite refs. :nono:
Noooo... In my book - if a ref is useless, he's useless, whether he's Welsh, English, Australian, comes from India, Jamaica, New Zealand or any where else.
I thought Nigel was excellent yesterday, I have to be honest. The yellow when he thought the ball was still in was a bit harsh possibly but he was excellent IMO.
Dickie E
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we were onside, we didn't collapse the scrum, that tackle wasn't high, the Yappies were cheating, poor food, worst accommodation ....
oh, sorry - I'm a week early
Owens is an excellent ref.
During this game however I thought he was not at his best.
For example at the scrum, when Woodcock kept collapsing it due to his failure to bind, Owens was awarding NZ free kicks. One of these was a 5metre scrum on the NZ line. Penalty to SA 5m out is very different to FK to NZ.
The YCs of Ross and Botha were bad decisions. When he YC'ed Botha - he said he was being consistent. I guess if his rationale is that he had already binned one player in a shocking decision, and now he was going to do likewise to the other team, then I guess that is being consistent.
And then there were the forward passes. How often in a game do you see refs give the benefit of the doubt to keep the game flowing? Not in this game.
Sorry Nigel - I would normally be one of your biggest fans. On this occasion you were not at your best and only average. (If only I could one day be as good as Mr Owens when he is having an average day !)
During this game however I thought he was not at his best.
For example at the scrum, when Woodcock kept collapsing it due to his failure to bind, Owens was awarding NZ free kicks. One of these was a 5metre scrum on the NZ line. Penalty to SA 5m out is very different to FK to NZ.
The YCs of Ross and Botha were bad decisions. When he YC'ed Botha - he said he was being consistent. I guess if his rationale is that he had already binned one player in a shocking decision, and now he was going to do likewise to the other team, then I guess that is being consistent.
And then there were the forward passes. How often in a game do you see refs give the benefit of the doubt to keep the game flowing? Not in this game.
Sorry Nigel - I would normally be one of your biggest fans. On this occasion you were not at your best and only average. (If only I could one day be as good as Mr Owens when he is having an average day !)
No - he didn't miss that. It just that that's not illegal anymore. For about 3 or 4 years, I think.
I thought Owens had a good game, and he is one of te top refs in the world - and if anyone thinks that NH solidarity, remember the man's WELSH, for goodness sake. It takes a train to cry, but it takes something a lot bigger to get an Englishman to praise the Welsh - 'tain't natural.
It would be the equivalent of New Zealand losing a test match and not blaming someone else.
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Assessing Nigel Owens at the elite level (which this game was meant to be) :
and I can't take a referee wearing white boots 100% seriously
- too much chat and explanation at times
- too static and 'assumptive' in his positioning on occasions (he gets caught out if play doesn't develop as he expects it too)
- I thought both YC were harsh calls, but in mitigation on NZ one I think Owens genuinely thought the ball was still in.
- Nigel's fitness levels are not as good as they should be and he doesn't compare in that area to Kaplan, Joubert, Rolland, Lawrence, etc
and I can't take a referee wearing white boots 100% seriously
Wert Twacky
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Ian,
I watched Matt Goddard's train crash and also Owen's game at the weekend.
FWIW, and I am a neutral in both, Goddard's performance was awful - you can't even compare the two. If I put in a display like that I too would expect to be stood down for a game. I do not believe that referees should be wrapped in cotton wool.
However, I feel Owen's was average - slightly better than what was played out in front of him, but agree that both yellows were harsh - very harsh.
As for 3 out of 10.... mmmmmm.
As for his fitness - NH referees are (maybe except Rolland) way behind SH referees when it comes to fitness levels and this showed on Saturday.
I watched Matt Goddard's train crash and also Owen's game at the weekend.
FWIW, and I am a neutral in both, Goddard's performance was awful - you can't even compare the two. If I put in a display like that I too would expect to be stood down for a game. I do not believe that referees should be wrapped in cotton wool.
However, I feel Owen's was average - slightly better than what was played out in front of him, but agree that both yellows were harsh - very harsh.
As for 3 out of 10.... mmmmmm.
As for his fitness - NH referees are (maybe except Rolland) way behind SH referees when it comes to fitness levels and this showed on Saturday.
Dickie E
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I'm surprised at that. I thought IRB set consistent requirements using bleep test, etc.
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But how often do they have to do the tests?
Maybe they pass the test....................eat everything in the fridge and slob around till they need to get fit for the next one.
I'm all for positive refereeing, but I do agree the yellow card was a complete crowd card. Very stupid didn't warrant a penalty even. As for the other two cards I'm all for them both certainly agreeing, with the usage of the cards.
I'm all for bringing the ELV free kick sanction back, and too just make sure it is policed a lot better. I don't like all these penalty kicks. But by all means I think it is very wrong to blame the referee for the loss of this game.
I'm all for bringing the ELV free kick sanction back, and too just make sure it is policed a lot better. I don't like all these penalty kicks. But by all means I think it is very wrong to blame the referee for the loss of this game.
Wert Twacky
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Chief - I don't think anyone is blaming the ref for the AB's loss of the game. They were woeful.
As for fitness - sure, the iRB do set out required fitness levels, but it is very obvious that some referees (mainly those residing south of the equator) work a lot harder to achieve a higher level of fitness than some, who, it seems, appear content to simply just pass it.
As for fitness - sure, the iRB do set out required fitness levels, but it is very obvious that some referees (mainly those residing south of the equator) work a lot harder to achieve a higher level of fitness than some, who, it seems, appear content to simply just pass it.
I think I have posted this before, but here goes:
The IRB refs are monitored 4 times a season
The base requirements are for level 12 on the bleep
Sub 5.7 seconds for the 40m sprint from a standing start
Then there is a phosphate decrement test where the refs are measured on
8 x 35 m sprint repeated every 20 secs where they have to keep within 5%
of their 35m sprint time
Then there are recommended body composition ranges
The IRB refs are monitored 4 times a season
The base requirements are for level 12 on the bleep
Sub 5.7 seconds for the 40m sprint from a standing start
Then there is a phosphate decrement test where the refs are measured on
8 x 35 m sprint repeated every 20 secs where they have to keep within 5%
of their 35m sprint time
Then there are recommended body composition ranges
scrumpox2
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I thought Owens did fine and all the cardings were made because he viewed the offences as both deliberate and in the red zone preventing potential try scoring opportunities.
Like others I thought the ball was out when Ross picked up his card but Owens was standing behind him rather than to the side and must have considered the ball to be at BdP's feet (as did BdP!!) To me it was bad positioning rather than a "home" call.
The Boks are by some margin the best team in the world without the ball and none too shabby with it. AB's under pressure looked very ordinary, more error prone than I can remember.
Like others I thought the ball was out when Ross picked up his card but Owens was standing behind him rather than to the side and must have considered the ball to be at BdP's feet (as did BdP!!) To me it was bad positioning rather than a "home" call.
The Boks are by some margin the best team in the world without the ball and none too shabby with it. AB's under pressure looked very ordinary, more error prone than I can remember.
I saw no signal, and could not hear what was said, so I do not know quite why Ross was carded.
In coming back to the ruck, Ross (far left) never got further back than this, which I don't think is far enough. In which case he was not entitled to go for the ball whether it was out or not.
Was it out? What are your criteria? Draw a line across the back of du Plessis' heels and the ball is in front of it.
In coming back to the ruck, Ross (far left) never got further back than this, which I don't think is far enough. In which case he was not entitled to go for the ball whether it was out or not.
Was it out? What are your criteria? Draw a line across the back of du Plessis' heels and the ball is in front of it.
ex-lucy
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Ob's post, this is what i thought the YC was for .. not onside when coming for what NO thought was ball not out.
there had been a warning given earlier to NZ for offences. Maybe the black 6 deserevd the YC that Ross rcvd.
"because he viewed the offences as both deliberate and in the red zone preventing potential try scoring opportunities."
this is also true.
so many times we have criticised refs for not having teh balls for punishing players for deliberate offenecs in the red zone. No showed his cojones.
Botha was up offside. It was deliberate and deserevd a YC - based on standards already set down.
Pietersen's was high and dangerous. Reckless. I would have carded him.
dont know what teh gripes are for... we winge when refs dont give these.
my comments on NO, made at the time.
good to see him pinging and warning NZ6, so many 6's creep up and not pinged for it.
not straight feed in scrum: good.
offside at kick ahead: good, about time a ref pinged this deliberate offence.
Sentinels... too many by NZ: bad.
1st pen goal to NZ: bad. wasnt ... materiality, the NZ play fell over and then theer was no NZ to ruck onto. No compt for the ball ... play on.
slow around teh breakdown and to and from breakdowns, altho he was there or thereabout for many of teh chases/ kcik aheads.
What ST said ... if play doesnt develop where he expects he gets caught out.
and gets in teh way alot.
then he turns his back to get out of teh way. ok, he has ARs to get him out of trouble if misses something ... but ..bad practise.
Botha came on from YC while NZ were kicking for goal!!
why?
i thought YC had to wait for next stoppage? kcik at goal is not a stoppage,.
deliberate pulling on in scrum: PK .. good
the Sa try .. was good in my book. ball was out ..
i'd give NO 9/10
there had been a warning given earlier to NZ for offences. Maybe the black 6 deserevd the YC that Ross rcvd.
"because he viewed the offences as both deliberate and in the red zone preventing potential try scoring opportunities."
this is also true.
so many times we have criticised refs for not having teh balls for punishing players for deliberate offenecs in the red zone. No showed his cojones.
Botha was up offside. It was deliberate and deserevd a YC - based on standards already set down.
Pietersen's was high and dangerous. Reckless. I would have carded him.
dont know what teh gripes are for... we winge when refs dont give these.
my comments on NO, made at the time.
good to see him pinging and warning NZ6, so many 6's creep up and not pinged for it.
not straight feed in scrum: good.
offside at kick ahead: good, about time a ref pinged this deliberate offence.
Sentinels... too many by NZ: bad.
1st pen goal to NZ: bad. wasnt ... materiality, the NZ play fell over and then theer was no NZ to ruck onto. No compt for the ball ... play on.
slow around teh breakdown and to and from breakdowns, altho he was there or thereabout for many of teh chases/ kcik aheads.
What ST said ... if play doesnt develop where he expects he gets caught out.
and gets in teh way alot.
then he turns his back to get out of teh way. ok, he has ARs to get him out of trouble if misses something ... but ..bad practise.
Botha came on from YC while NZ were kicking for goal!!
why?
i thought YC had to wait for next stoppage? kcik at goal is not a stoppage,.
deliberate pulling on in scrum: PK .. good
the Sa try .. was good in my book. ball was out ..
i'd give NO 9/10
Drop kick or place?
I didn't see the match so assuming it was a place kick (penalty/conversion), then the ball is dead at that point and substitutions can occur so no reason to assume YCs can't come on at that point either.
(I believe there's a ruling on the ball being dead at a kick - I know it's a bit of a concern to the RFU group that deals with youth regulations as the RFU allows reuse of substitutes at club level youth games to encourage participation but there's a concern that being able to bring on a specialist kicker for place kicks is a route no one wants to go down. Fortunately it doesn't seem to be happening yet.)