Scotland v Wales - Joubert

Gracie


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
144
Post Likes
27
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
Joubert had a very poor game, he seemed to have no idea about the scrum whatsoever. He appeared to have no confidence in his own decision making and gave a series of baffling decisions against Scotland - so much so that at the close they would not take a scrum - ruining the game to a large degree.

Warburton won plaudits but in turning over the ball, he never seems to do so legally. Finally, the ref gave a penalty against him but he is never on his feet, always having hands on the floor to hold himself up.
 

Dave Sherwin


Referees in the Cayman Islands
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
283
Post Likes
52
I thought Joubert looked just a touch off the pace but was generally ok. However, there was a period of about five minutes (round about 65-70 from recollection) when it looke as if his energy levels were well down and at one stage during this period he found himself unsighted at about 5 rucks in a row, during which he missed between 3 and 4 offences. I normally like his very understated, very unflustered approach but on this occasion his performance just seemed to drop off a cliff for a few minutes. He regathered towards the end.

I actually thought he was generally pretty precise in dealing with Warburton who generally takes great care not to put himself in a position where he will be classified as a tackle assist so being able to get hands on the ball very swiftly. There was one occasion where Warburton had one and on the tackled player as he went down, tried to jackal and was immediately identified and penalised.

I missed about 20 mins of the game in the first half, so more than happy to be corrected by those who saw the whole thing, but the above was my overall impression from what I saw.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,087
Post Likes
1,808
he is never on his feet, always having hands on the floor to hold himself up.

well that is modern elite jackling isn;t it? as perpetrated and permitted by many players and refs at that level. its clearly one of those "we have reachedf an agreement as to how this will be refereed" areas presumably?

didds
 

exiledholdfast

New member
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
46
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Joubert had a very poor game, he seemed to have no idea about the scrum whatsoever. He appeared to have no confidence in his own decision making and gave a series of baffling decisions against Scotland - so much so that at the close they would not take a scrum - ruining the game to a large degree.

I agree that Joubert did not have a good game but it is a long time since he did. However, his penalising of the Scottish scrum was not baffling. And the reason why is highlighted in this quote from Kelly Brown's article in today's Daily Telegraph:

That said, if there are issues we have to figure them out. We were being
penalised heavily and we need to know why. I think we were engaging properly, driving forward when the referee said “set”. However, if the opposition do not do the same then it can look as if you
are going early.
That is what we were penalised for in the opening exchanges, a
free-kick offence that the referee subsequently elevated to a penalty because of
repeated infringements. It is a balancing act, but all we can do is see if we
can improve anything.


I have added the bold which gets to the crux of the problem - Brown does not know the laws of the game. He believes that it is OK to drive on 'set'; the laws state that the scrum should remain staionary until the ball is thrown in. Plus there is no requirement for the opposition to reciprocate the drive; some refs, Wayne Barnes is a serial offender, penalise teams for 'not taking the hit' - this is a made up infringement that is not in the laws.

You may question why Wales were not penalised on the 2 occasions they drove forward on set - simple, Phillips put the ball in immediately after 'set', as he is required to do by the laws. Joubert did not penalise because a clean scrum ensued.

So not baffling - merely down to Scotland's inability to understand and play to the laws.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Brown does not know the laws of the game. He believes that it is OK to drive on 'set'; the laws state that the scrum should remain staionary until the ball is thrown in. Plus there is no requirement for the opposition to reciprocate the drive; some refs, Wayne Barnes is a serial offender, penalise teams for 'not taking the hit' - this is a made up infringement that is not in the laws.

You may question why Wales were not penalised on the 2 occasions they drove forward on set - simple, Phillips put the ball in immediately after 'set', as he is required to do by the laws.
[LAWS]Law 20.5 No Delay. As soon as the front rows have come together, the scrum half must throw in he ball without delay . [...][/LAWS]If the scrum half throws the ball in when the referee says "Set", he is too early (hence the word I have bolded).

Although it is true there is nothing specific in the Laws to require a team to "take the hit", the reality is that teams have to co-operate to some extent to form a scrum. If one team tries to engineer a penalty, I see no good reason why that should be allowed. If an international referee is warning/penalising that on a regular basis it is fair to assume that the MOs are happy with that. It makes sense to me.

The basic problem is the hit: it is designed to get the advantage by moving the opposition back, if only slightly, before the ball comes in, and needs to be reduced to the level that is necessary for a solid scrum. As I have long argued, that first sentence of 20.5 should be rescinded, so that the referee can enforce 20.1 (j) "Stationary and parallel."
 

Shelflife


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
634
Post Likes
168
the number of pens conceded during the match was a new 6 nations record i belive. 28 pens and no yellow cards (forget about the one with only 90secs in the game. For me thats terrible game management. If you let the players infringe without the threat of a yellow they will do it all day long. And they did, ruined the game for me.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
the number of pens conceded during the match was a new 6 nations record i belive. 28 pens and no yellow cards (forget about the one with only 90secs in the game. For me thats terrible game management. If you let the players infringe without the threat of a yellow they will do it all day long. And they did, ruined the game for me.
Looking at just the number of penalties is too simplistic. A lot depends on what they were awarded for and when.
[LAWS]Law 10.3 (a) Repeatedly offending. A player must not repeatedly infringe any law. [...] [/LAWS]I have always understood this to mean that it has to be a repeat of the same sort of offence to count. Certainly at lower levels it also has to be within a reasonably short time frame.

Not having seen the game, I cannot say whether that was the case or not
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Looking at just the number of penalties is too simplistic. A lot depends on what they were awarded for and when.
[LAWS]Law 10.3 (a) Repeatedly offending. A player must not repeatedly infringe any law. [...] [/LAWS]I have always understood this to mean that it has to be a repeat of the same sort of offence to count. Certainly at lower levels it also has to be within a reasonably short time frame.

Not having seen the game, I cannot say whether that was the case or not

Q? ....does 1xhigh tackle + 1x offside at 13, + 1 x tighthead boring in + 1x tackler not releasing, + 1x deliberate knock on, + 1x beyond the back foot = YC :yellow: or does it.................... Always ?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,087
Post Likes
1,808
with tat approach 15 different PK offences wihin the 5m area in 10 minutes would not deservedly see a YC?

really?

who IS running the phsyche ward exctly?

didds
 

bcm666

Brian Moore, Ex England International Hooker
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
178
Post Likes
27
Last weekend saw another level reached for me. Joubert was so slow on his engagement count that it was not only painfully boring but bordering on ludicrous. There is nearly 90 st of player weight behind the front row and it is all leaning on and has to be counterbalanced. When front rows are stood up and leant back that is easily done. When they go into the crouch position it is not.

The engagement sequence has little or no effect in what comes afterwards and to have the game constantly interrupted because packs do not get it right is nonsense when you compare what they are allowed to do thereafter which does directly cause instability, collapse etc.

I've been told there has been an edict for referees to make sure the packs are stationary, square and still before the set is called, the thinking being that this will stabilise what comes thereafter. We now have the law that would make a difference if it was applied where it should be - after engagement and before the feed, applied where it isn’t needed.

Another thread on here referred to Kelly Brown's ignorance of the scrum laws and technically that criticism is correct. However, when it has become accepted practice that this is the way elite referees will look at the scrum Brown's ignorance is understandable. What better proof can I present for my argument that elite referees have allowed this early push to become practice?

On Sunday I listened to Clancy giving binding, body angle advice to front row players. This isn't his job as a referee and in fact wouldn’t be his job unless he has specialist technical knowledge, which he doesn't. We now have referees at elite level who are coaching things they shouldn’t and not refereeing things they should.

Can things get any more ridiculous?
 

Davet

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,731
Post Likes
4
I always take a not of PKs awarded, when and why - if we get gto 3 PKs for pretty much any reason within say under 10 mins then I will discuss with the ref what he felt his options were for a YC. Not to say that acrd should have happened, but at least to test the refs thought processes, and make him think about his options in more details next time out

If the PKs are for the same sort of offence, say tackle/ruck offences that slow down opposition ball then I would see 3 such rapid fire PKs as at least a warning - and quite possibly expect the warning on the 2nd offence if the two were say less than 5 or 6 minutes apart.

A cynical offence that prevents a good attacking opportunity, especially as we get closer to the offenders goal line may well warrant an immediate YC, without any warning.

- - - Updated - - -

Brian
:clap::clap::clap:
 

Jacko


Argentina Referees in Argentina
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,514
Post Likes
79
Current Referee grade:
National Panel
Joubert's cadence has (admittedly for previous games) been circulated as best practice by the IRB. Assuming his cadence was similar to his previous work, he is just doing as he's told.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Last weekend saw another level reached for me. Joubert was so slow on his engagement count that it was not only painfully boring but bordering on ludicrous. There is nearly 90 st of player weight behind the front row and it is all leaning on and has to be counterbalanced. When front rows are stood up and leant back that is easily done. When they go into the crouch position it is not.

The engagement sequence has little or no effect in what comes afterwards and to have the game constantly interrupted because packs do not get it right is nonsense when you compare what they are allowed to do thereafter which does directly cause instability, collapse etc.

I've been told there has been an edict for referees to make sure the packs are stationary, square and still before the set is called, the thinking being that this will stabilise what comes thereafter. We now have the law that would make a difference if it was applied where it should be - after engagement and before the feed, applied where it isn’t needed.

Another thread on here referred to Kelly Brown's ignorance of the scrum laws and technically that criticism is correct. However, when it has become accepted practice that this is the way elite referees will look at the scrum Brown's ignorance is understandable. What better proof can I present for my argument that elite referees have allowed this early push to become practice?

On Sunday I listened to Clancy giving binding, body angle advice to front row players. This isn't his job as a referee and in fact wouldn’t be his job unless he has specialist technical knowledge, which he doesn't. We now have referees at elite level who are coaching things they shouldn’t and not refereeing things they should.

Can things get any more ridiculous?
Agree, with just a small caveat on the final main point: the referee can penalise players for scrummaging illegally, so to that extent it makes sense for him to warn them if what he sees is illegal. There is a subtle distinction between that and coaching them how to scrummage.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
I always take a not of PKs awarded, when and why - if we get gto 3 PKs for pretty much any reason within say under 10 mins then I will discuss with the ref what he felt his options were for a YC. Not to say that acrd should have happened, but at least to test the refs thought processes, and make him think about his options in more details next time out

If the PKs are for the same sort of offence, say tackle/ruck offences that slow down opposition ball then I would see 3 such rapid fire PKs as at least a warning - and quite possibly expect the warning on the 2nd offence if the two were say less than 5 or 6 minutes apart.

A cynical offence that prevents a good attacking opportunity, especially as we get closer to the offenders goal line may well warrant an immediate YC, without any warning.
I make similar notes, but since, as you say, you cannot penalise a team for repeated offences unless they are broadly the same, all you can do for multiple different offences is warn the captain that they are beginning to look deliberate or at least reckless.
 

Davet

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,731
Post Likes
4
Agreed, though I would suggest that "broadly the same" is a broad concept in itself. If a team is using a variety of tactics to illegally close down play at the breakdown then that is sufficiently the same type of offennce in my book.

Deep in defending 22
Minute 1 - tackler not rolling away
Minute 3 - defender hands in ruck

Chat

Minute 6 - Defender in at side at tackle - YC
 

Shelflife


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
634
Post Likes
168
Where does it say that you cannot penalise a team for repeat offending unless they are broadly the same? Otherwise you could have a situation as was alluded to earlier that you have 6 or 7 different pens inside the 5m zone within 5mins and no sanction available to you.

You can read the law as repeat offending as in constantly giving away pens or repeating the same type of pen.

Personally I think that its the former and I think that when there was 6 pens in the first 10 mins of the 2nd half (after 12 pens in the first half) Joubert should have called both capts together and told them to get their act together.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Agreed, though I would suggest that "broadly the same" is a broad concept in itself. If a team is using a variety of tactics to illegally close down play at the breakdown then that is sufficiently the same type of offennce in my book.

Deep in defending 22
Minute 1 - tackler not rolling away
Minute 3 - defender hands in ruck

Chat

Minute 6 - Defender in at side at tackle - YC
All breakdown offences in the red zone. Agreed.

There will of course always be a grey area, which I would discuss with the referee, but if his thought processes seem to be valid, well and good.
 

ddjamo


Referees in Canada
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
2,912
Post Likes
135
Agreed, though I would suggest that "broadly the same" is a broad concept in itself. If a team is using a variety of tactics to illegally close down play at the breakdown then that is sufficiently the same type of offennce in my book.

Deep in defending 22
Minute 1 - tackler not rolling away
Minute 3 - defender hands in ruck

Chat

Minute 6 - Defender in at side at tackle - YC

agreed. I use phase of play to HELP my management decisions. eg - 2 at the ruck or say 2 at the set piece, etc...
 

B52 REF


Referees in England
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
650
Post Likes
9
Shelflife -unfortunately 10.3 a by using "any law" means it must be the same offence as per your former example. HOWEVER most offences are also 10.2 a (intentional) so immediately cardable anyway so as per davets example at min. 6 "capt. we just spoke about this player x has just come in at side of ruck and INTENTIONALLY offended - YC"
 
Top