Scrum advantage before 80:00

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2
Bristol vs Leicester today.

Leicester 3 points down. Less than 30 seconds to go.

Leicester kicked for touch from a penalty with the clock at 79:50. (The line out would have been part of the penalty so would have been completed after the clock goes red.)

Piatau quite brilliant stops the ball from going into touch at 79:56 but in doing so knocks the ball on back into the field of play. (He lands in play as well so no line out should be given.)

All the Bristol players retreating are told by Sheedy to leave the ball alone as they are all offside. If they touched it would have been Leicester penalty. Piatau retrieves his own knock on and the ball is recycled by Bristol and kicked into touch at 80:04.

Ref Foley then asks the TMO, did the knock on occur before time is up. He said yes it did so Foley awards the scrum to Leicester.

In my opinion this is wrong and the game should have ended on the knock on at 80:04.

Thoughts pls.
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,226
Post Likes
247
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
You say the KO occurs at 79m 56s and then you say the game should have ended at the KO @ 80m 04s....which time did it occur?
 

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2
You say the KO occurs at 79m 56s and then you say the game should have ended at the KO @ 80m 04s....which time did it occur?
The knock on occurs at 79:56. Foley plays 6 seconds advantage. When he blows the whistle to go back for the scrum advantage the clock shows 80:04. The question is should he go back to a scrum advantage before time was up.
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,226
Post Likes
247
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I'm guessing that he didn't know the ball had gone forward from the attempt to prevent it going in to touch...otherwise he'd wouldn't /couldn't have played advantage.
Presumably he was alerted to this by AR and then rightly went back to the KO which occurred before 80m.

Didn’t see this game so only surmising based on your description.
 

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2
I'm guessing that he didn't know the ball had gone forward from the attempt to prevent it going in to touch...otherwise he'd wouldn't /couldn't have played advantage.
Presumably he was alerted to this by AR and then rightly went back to the KO which occurred before 80m.

Didn’t see this game so only surmising based on your description.
No. He knows it goes forward (by 3 yards) but let’s play go on as it could’ve been regathered by Leicester players or if any Bristol player touches it (who was in front of the knock on) then it’s a pen to Leicester. Neither of those things happen so in my book time is up and the game ends. He asks did the knock on happen before the clock is red, it did so awards the scrum. From which Leicester score to win.
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,226
Post Likes
247
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Well unless I'm missing something in the translation then referee seems to have got it right!
 

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2

He didn’t land in play so it should have been a Tigers line out. But given he has ignored that you cannot play advantage over 80:00 for a knock forward.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
19,659
Post Likes
2,221

He didn’t land in play so it should have been a Tigers line out. But given he has ignored that you cannot play advantage over 80:00 for a knock forward.
you certainly can play advantage after 80.00 for a knock forward
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,226
Post Likes
247
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade

He didn’t land in play so it should have been a Tigers line out. But given he has ignored that you cannot play advantage over 80:00 for a knock forward.
In your original post you say he lands in the field of play and no lineout should have been awarded. ...now you state the opposite!
Yes advantage can and should be played after 80m where appropriate.

Sour grapes?
 

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2
you certainly can play advantage after 80.00 for a knock forward
Yes. Absolutely you can play advantage after 80 mins for a knock forward. But if that doesn’t proceed to anything material, after 80:00 do you go back and award the scrum. I don’t think you do.
you certainly can play advantage after 80.00 for a knock forward
 

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2
In your original post you say he lands in the field of play and no lineout should have been awarded. ...now you state the opposite!
Yes advantage can and should be played after 80m where appropriate.

Sour grapes?
I’ve now seen the landing from a different angle and it’s arguable he lands in the field of play. So that should certainly have been looked at.

But once he doesn’t give that the whistle is blown with time dead and there is nothing in the laws that says you go back for a scrum advantage that occurred before time was up.

And nothing to do with sour grapes. I don’t support or dislike either team. Just looked wrong at the end of the game.
In your original post you say he lands in the field of play and no lineout should have been awarded. ...now you state the opposite!
Yes advantage can and should be played after 80m where appropriate.

Sour grapes?
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,379
Post Likes
1,639
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Merry Christmas all. Here is Butters' question with gift wrapping removed.

A Red player knocks the ball on at 79:55 and it is gathered by Blue. Ref plays advantage. At 80:10 refs decides that no advantage is coming so blows whistle for the knock on.

Should ref:
1. set scrum because offence occurred before 80:00 minutes, or
2. end game because whistle was blown after 80:00 minutes?

Law 5.7 tells us:
A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
  1. A scrum, lineout or restart kick following a try or touchdown, awarded before time expired, has not been completed and the ball has not returned to open play. This includes when the scrum, lineout or restart kick is taken incorrectly.
 
Last edited:

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2
t
Merry Christmas all. Here is Butters' question with gift wrapping removed.

A Red player knocks the ball on at 79:55 and it is gathered by Blue. Ref plays advantage. At 80:10 refs decides that no advantage is coming so blows whistle for the knock on.

Should ref:
1. set scrum because offence occurred before 80:00 minutes, or
2. end game because whistle was blown after 80:00 minutes?

Law 5.7 tells us
Merry Christmas all. Here is Butters' question with gift wrapping removed.

A Red player knocks the ball on at 79:55 and it is gathered by Blue. Ref plays advantage. At 80:10 refs decides that no advantage is coming so blows whistle for the knock on.

Should ref:
1. set scrum because offence occurred before 80:00 minutes, or
2. end game because whistle was blown after 80:00 minutes?

Law 5.7 tells us:
Thanks Dickie. So the game should have ended?
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,379
Post Likes
1,639
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Thanks Dickie. So the game should have ended?

no, for me, by the ref indicating advantage before time has expired, he/she is awarding a scrum
A scrum, ..., awarded before time expired, has not been completed
 

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2
no, for me, by the ref indicating advantage before time has expired, he/she is awarding a scrum
You have quoted the law… but missed out “following a try or touchdown.” And the ball has returned to open play. My mate who is a pro ref has said their forums are awash with this!!!!
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,379
Post Likes
1,639
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
You have quoted the law… but missed out “following a try or touchdown.” And the ball has returned to open play. My mate who is a pro ref has said their forums are awash with this!!!!
"restart kick following a try or touchdown"
"has not been completed and the ball has not returned to open play"

these 2 phrases should be read as complete statements.

Certainly your OP raises an interesting point worthy of discussion
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,226
Post Likes
247
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Merry Christmas all. Here is Butters' question with gift wrapping removed.

A Red player knocks the ball on at 79:55 and it is gathered by Blue. Ref plays advantage. At 80:10 refs decides that no advantage is coming so blows whistle for the knock on.

Should ref:
1. set scrum because offence occurred before 80:00 minutes, or
2. end game because whistle was blown after 80:00 minutes?

Law 5.7 tells us:
In this scenario the KO is gathered by opposition....in OP scenario the KO was regathered by the player who knocked on so clearly no advantage coming.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,379
Post Likes
1,639
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
In this scenario the KO is gathered by opposition....in OP scenario the KO was regathered by the player who knocked on so clearly no advantage coming.

so in terms of whether or not a scrum is set, what difference does that make?
 

Butters


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
37
Post Likes
2
In this scenario the KO is gathered by opposition....in OP scenario the KO was regathered by the player who knocked on so clearly no advantage coming.
But in between the offence occurring and the whistle being blown the clock has gone red. To make it very simple.

Can a knock on which occurs prior to the clock going red, be awarded when time is dead.
 
Top