Scrum Penalty Try.

[Dickie E]

Or scored in a better position

Where does it say that?

Also law 10 says:

Advantage may be played for acts of foul play, but if the offence prevents a probable try, a penalty try must be awarded.

Note the word 'prevents'.

 

[OB..]

Where does it say that?

Also law 10 says:

Advantage may be played for acts of foul play, but if the offence prevents a probable try, a penalty try must be awarded.

Note the word 'prevents'.

[LAWS]Law 22.4 (h)
Penalty try. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored but for foul play by the defending team. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored in a better position but for foul play by the defending team.[/LAWS]

 

[Davet]

Thanks OB

 

[Dickie E]

Or scored in a better position

So regarding the OP - don't you then need to see where the subsequent try is scored (after advantage) before you can decide if the try would have been scored in a better position?

 

[Davet]

True

But my point was once you have decided that a PT is appropriate then there is no point in playing advantage.

In the case of the winger you describe then, because of the immediacy of the score, your decision to award the PT only comes after the ball is dead. If there were a sufficient delay for you to award it anyway then you would have done so.

 

[Dickie E]

Agree to disagree.

The attacking team should be given every opportunity to score the try. If this is PREVENTED by foul play, then PT as last resort.

 

[Davet]

Then you could be responsible for the 30 man brawl that follows your ill-advised advantage at a critical flashpoint.

In addition the law mandates "prevents", OR "scored in a better position".

You may referee as you wish, but I won't agree with you.

 

[Dickie E]

In addition the law mandates "prevents", OR "scored in a better position".

We can agree that at least one of these must occur to justify a PT.

 

[Dickie E]

Then you could be responsible for the 30 man brawl that follows your ill-advised advantage at a critical flashpoint.

This is the kind of post that people complain about as "playing the man".

I'll see this and raise you with a:

"you must be the ref that recently wore out 3 whistles in a game".

 

[didds]

A whip wheel is a penalty offense? What Law is that?

whatever the law is that says all scrummage players must be in a pushing position and straight, or similar. when you are pulling and running sideways you can't be fulfilling that remit.

didds

 

[Davet]

Then you could be responsible for the 30 man brawl that follows your ill-advised advantage at a critical flashpoint.

This is the kind of post that people complain about as "playing the man".

I'll see this and raise you with a:

"you must be the ref that recently wore out 3 whistles in a game".

Not at all. You suggest a ref should act in a particular way, I suggest that if you do referee like that then you are in danger of creating a flashpoint and a brawl.

Safety is the prime concern, and avoiding this sort of situation is precisely why we have refs rather than simply let the players get on with it.

Why you feel awarding a PT would wear out a whistle escapes me.

 

[Dickie E]

Not at all. You suggest a ref should act in a particular way, I suggest that if you do referee like that then you are in danger of creating a flashpoint and a brawl.

Safety is the prime concern, and avoiding this sort of situation is precisely why we have refs rather than simply let the players get on with it.

That is the same old argument for never playing any advantage. Law 8.3 may help you.

 

[Account Deleted]

I think that in the event of a 5 mtr scrum I might hold off a little before blowing my whistle for a PT here if there is a real chance of a score despite the offence.
If the game was bad tempered then I might go for a quick whistle to try to avoid the type of flashpoint to which Davet refers.

 

[Phil E]

That is the same old argument for never playing any advantage. Law 8.3 may help you.

Safety trumps Law.

 

[OB..]

Safety trumps Law.

But only if there is a genuine conflict. Otherwise it is (as ever!) a judgement call.

 

[Davet]

Dickie E

No

It's the old argument for playing advantage when appropriate.

 

[B52 REF]

S-T "20.1 (f) when FR interlocking heads break up it becomes illegal
20.2 (a) All players in a position to shove. When a scrum has formed, the body and feet of each
front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove - this will not be the case when a whip wheel is being .
20.3 Binding - must stay legal, and doesn't especially if "pulling on"

or just basic catch-all dangerous play ! "

Much as i hate to contradict S-T there is no longer a "catch all dangerous play " offence and the laws quoted are not appropiate to use to penalise what you may consider to be an illegal wheel ( we have "threaded" this before but to recap 20.2 a and b is always technicaslly infringed when a scrum advances or retreats so is not appropiate.) THE ONLY LOTG useful in "illegal wheels" are pulling on as covered in 20.3 b and c (illegal binding) and 20.8 g which says FR must not "do anything that is likely to collapse a scrum."
I would advise against using terms like "whip wheel" "running around" "not shoving straight or even "illegal wheel" as they only give rise/credence to urban myths like "crossing". It is important that we are clear that wheeling including fast but safe wheels are perfectly legal.(senoir rugby) WE in law can only penalise a wheel where we have seen illeagl binding (pulling on) or actions of the fr that we reckon are likely to collapse the scrum.

 

[didds]

not sure why 20.2(a) is broken when a scrum goes forwards or backwards?

didds

 

[B52 REF]

didds- specious but some may argue you are "not in a normal position to make a forward shove " if one foot is off the ground particularly when taking a step back..but no sweat as we know you are allowed to wheel ergo you may step back thus losing your normal position to shove forward

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I would advise against using terms like "whip wheel" "running around" "not shoving straight or even "illegal wheel" as they only give rise/credence to urban myths....

You mean like Alain Rolland did in the Scarlets v Northampton match last week?:biggrin: