Scrums - things to look for.

[Bury_Dave]

Hi,
New guy here. Just did my ELRA a week ago in order to get more involved in my son's U14 rugby and perhaps eventually more of our clubs' squads by assisting with the apparent lack of referees.
I'm finding the prospect of ref'ing (initially) youth games an exciting prospect and it's certainly given my enthusiasm for the game an extra boost to just training with my son and watching him play.

I last played in the early 90's and having been away from rugby completely until 2 years ago, I know I'm going to find it difficult to catch the right things to start with. Boy has the game moved on !! The thing I could do with some real assistance with is the scrum. An important part of the game and the one which has the potential to go very wrong if not properly managed and monitored. Could anyone please direct me to a good DVD / video or photo resource for what to look for through the whole scrummaging process ?

Also, anyone here from the Suffolk & N.Essex Refs Assoc ?

Cheers,
Dave

 

[ExHookah]

Dave,

Firstly, welcome to the forum. I hope you find it educational and informative, but above all enjoyable. Pretty much everyone on here has joined to "spread the wealth", and so feel free to enter any discussions you see, as the teachers at school used to say "the only stupid question is the one you don't ask".

Here's some scrum resources to get you started:

THE COLLAPSED SCRUM – MAKING THE LOGICAL CALL
http://www.wrfu.org/irbInfoPages/2004-07-09.pdf


The mechanics of the scrum and implications for the role of the tight head prop, right lock and right flanker.
http://www.errfu.org/images/tmp/The_Mechanics_of_Scrumming_-_David_Docherty.pdf

 

[Simon Thomas]

Dave

Welcome the the 'brotherhood'. Your profile and reasons for reffing are similar to many on here - some stay as club youth refs others join their Society and widen their refereeing and a few climb the promotion pole and get to Federation (Eastern Counties) and Group (London & SE).

I would strongly encourage you to join a Society (Suffolk, Cambridge, or Norfolk Refs Societies perhaps ?) to complete ELRA stage 3, and go to their training meetings etc.

Eastern Counties - http://www.ecrefs.org/contact-us.htm (may be out of date)
Cambridge - http://clubs.rfu.com/CLUBS/portals/cudrrs/Default.aspx
Norfolk - Graham Cross tel 01379 642345

A good guy who I know personally is Alan Gold of Essex who will definitely help you Alan Gold 0208 281 1041 H 0208 505 7084 F 07774 435412 M

 

[Wert Twacky]

Welcome Bury Dave,

Have fun in your quest and when you figure out just what the hell goes on in a scrum, you can write a book and make a mint!

I've been trying to figure the whole bun fight out for years and still haven't managed!

As Simon T said - join a society. Sound advice

 

[Staybound]

Bury Dave - Welcome!!!

Expect to get about 100 replies to this - questions like this are absolute griss to the mill for most of us on the forum.

As you'll know from ELRA safety is the key thing - with youths (arguably) more than with adults. The ELRA materials provide a good checklist if my memory serves me correct. My advice goes like this:

• Be clear in your briefing to the front rows - tell them what to expect
• In a youth match I personally always ask the coaches whether the FR players are "Suitably Trained and Experienced". More of an a*se covering exercise, but if you do it right you can emphasise that the onus is on them
• At scrum time make sure the players are properly bound, square on to the touchline and you can see all the shoulders popped through.
• Go through CTPE purposefully and don't go to the next stage until you are absolutely happy they have complied with the last
• Shoulders comfortably above hips at Crouch, and don't let them dip thereafter
• Make sure they touch
• check the f/r's chins are off their chests
• At Engage make sure that the props' binding is high on the oppo's shirt - elbows nicely up
• If you're unhappy with anything BLOW. Re-set it if you think it's just a SNAFU and ATP if you think someone is behaving badly. If they are behaving badly enough for it to be hazardous to them or others then just tell and then penalise
• Call them to hold their drive until the ball goes in
• Keep an eye on feet in the tunnel
• For the benefit of Brian Moore, and to be fair the law, make sure that the put in is legal
• get to a position where you can monitor offside lines for SHs and backs
• The flankers WILL unbind early unless you remind them (hence my nickname!)

There are about a zillion offences of varying degrees of seriousness at the scrum but if you focus on safety and fairness you are going to have a decent game and the players aren't going to feel too bet out of shape. Good luck and enjoy!!!!

 

[dave_clark]

if i remember correctly, BSE have a number of decent quality refs within the club who should be more than happy to help you and answer any questions you have. when we had to re-arrange our national colts cup match a couple of seasons ago on Saturday morning due to a (supposed) waterlogged pitch (Chelmsford borough council, thanks a f*cking bunch), a level 6 ref was arranged within about 45 minutes.

also check whether Suffolk and North Essex will cover your ELRA cost if you do a certain number of games through them. i know Essex do, which i'm sure Alan Gold will mention to you on many, many occasions if you do speak with him

oh, welcome. well, everyone else has said it

 

[Phil E]

Heres my 6p worth.

As well as all the good stuff in the above posts (and I am sure in the posts to come), best bit of advice I got was "what are the players in the scrum trying to achieve?"

Now, as the scrum is forming and the fat blokes* are huffing and puffing their way to the scrum I take the moment to have a think about the following:

Where are we on the pitch?
Who has the put in?
What will the put in team be trying to achieve?
What are the no putting in team going to try to achieve?

Further on from this you will need to think about what each player in the scrum is trying to achieve (see the documents in post #2).

For instance:

Attackers 5m scrum from goal line.
They are probably going to try to push over, or wheel slightly to give more space for the #8 to break.
Defenders if they cant hold the push may want to drop the scrum or rise up.
Defenders if they hold the push may look to break away early to defend.
Defenders may try to whip wheel in an attempt to get a turnover (does not apply to U19; and unlikely near their own line).

And so on and so forth.

There is a lot to think about. Concentrate on safety first until you get the basics down pat, then start looking for the other things as above.

You might have had a little booklet as part of your ELRA all about scrums, which is very useful.

Best of luck


* May not apply in kids rugby?

 

[Bury_Dave]

WOW ! First off, thank you all for making a novice welcome. That's a great first impression that's been made on me.

The course I did was with a ref' called Dave Locke. Very knowledgeable guy too. Credit to him for getting across the point of how to control the game if it needs it or to allow open, flowing play. He had a good fund of anecdotes to illustrate his points and was very good at explaining the scrum and what to look for. I'm asking here also as I'm sure there are many varied views outside the basics that were so well stated by Staybound. I especially liked the things to look for in context by Phil E. There must be a ton of things like that for every aspect of play. :chin: I look forward to future contributions and thank you all in advance.

One thing that wasn't really said was what resources are at my local club and I'll need to look into that. Also into joining the Suffolk & N.Essex Assoc'n.

It's a shame I'm reduced to the sad occupation of watching DVD's and trying to ref them Can't wait for the season to start and get properly 'blooded' !

One thing I didn't get though was the difference between 'Contextual Judgement' & 'Materiality'.............. to me they are one and the same and are better put as using common sense in applying the laws.

Questions, questions ........................

If anyone is near Bury St Edmunds or ends up ref'ing a match there, I'd be happy to have a chat and pick your brains.

Dave

 

[Staybound]

Dave,

Well done - 2 favourite topics on these forums (fora) in just one day! Scrums and Materiality / contextual judgement!!! You'll be very popular.

You're right in bunching them together as common sense, but more accurately they are rugby sense.

Phil provides a great example of contextual judgement as it relates to scrummaging. The things that happen in scrums near the try-line are different and have a different significance than when they are midfield. Something that is not material in midfield might be very very material inside the 22.

Context informs your threshold of materiality (sounds very Zen!). If you think you can make up examples. Here's one.

Line out Blue throwing / red defending. You check that blue and (more significantly) red backs are 10m back. You notice that the red winger on the far side is probably 8 metres away from the LOT. It's Bury 3rds versus Ipswich YMCA Vets. Do you care? Is it material? Is the winger really going to get an unfair advantage? Are the vets likely to do a catch and drive? Are you going to call a penalty or have a quiet word with the bloke and tell him not to take the Mick? That's materiality. Now your career has advanced and you are refereeing England vs the Boks in the WC final. Bryan Habana is doing the same as the Bury 14 did a few years back. 2 metres advantage to Habana is money in the bank for him. It's the difference between making the tackle or interception and missing it if England pass along the line (what, fast ball, never happen). Now you might think about penalising Habana because he's actually cheating and might make a decent fist of benefitting from his cheat. That, in my view, is contextual judgement.

My advice is keep an eye on this site, get to meetings and, once the season starts, get out and make mistakes that you'll learn from!

 

[ExHookah]

It's a shame I'm reduced to the sad occupation of watching DVD's and trying to ref them Can't wait for the season to start and get properly 'blooded' !

Dave

Dave,

Nothing wrong with doing that, I think you'll find that most of us do it too, whether we realize that we're doing it. I know that I can't help it, and as a result my wife rarely stays in the room if I'm watching a match.

Once piece of advice with that would be to try to get copies of the lowest level matches you can get hold of. The way that Stu Dickenson is going to referee the Lions vs Springboks is not the way that a referee is going to referee 95% of matches.

For one thing he has fully miked up AR's so his position is going to differ from that of a mortal referee.

Secondly, "TV Rugby" is a different animal to "real" rugby. They allow certain things to go that community level referees need to be penalizing or managing.

 

[dave_clark]

One thing that wasn't really said was what resources are at my local club and I'll need to look into that.

best place to start is with your youth chairman. he'll know the whys and wherefores about your club. well, he certainly should - i do about mine!

i'm youth chair at Chelmsford and i dare say a number of our teams will be making our way up to see you this season. possibly even our U14s - i don't have the fixtures to hand. if you have any questions about how our club's junior section works, fire away. can't guarantee the answers will be right or even the same as what your youth chair says, but it might be handy as a different perspective...

 

[ddjamo]

main thing you should focus on is the straight feed...:bday: :biggrin:

 

[stuart3826]

FWIW as you're going to ref kids, I seriously recommend you blow if you have the slightest doubt. Far better to have 5 resets than an injured kiddie!

 

[Bury_Dave]

Thanks ExHookah, the advice about the lowest grade matches sounds very sensible. I ought now to also try to get to as many home matches or our seconds and thirds and youth as possible too and maybe even try to grab a word with the ref' afterwards.

Initially I took this on as a way to help my lads' team but have realised that not only will it give me a part to play when he has grown up and moved away, but realise that rather than seeing it as a bit of a joke, I now think that the youth teams have as much right to a good and fair ref' as an international team. I might raise a bit of a titter from the touch lines (not that I care what other people think or I'd not be ref'ing ) over pre-match talks etc but it's better to be that way than doing a disservice to the boys by not giving them the opportunity to play good, open, expansive rugby that is well managed. Assuming that they play ball of course !

Chelmsford ! Yep, my lad had played against them a couple of times and I think they are on the fixture list and probably a festival or two. I'll let you know if I'm there, be happy to buy you a pint Dave and chew the cud.

Thanks for all the sage advice guys.

Dave

 

[Simon Thomas]

Dave

Don't just watch, run as a TJ (with just club TJ powers of marking touch and 10m / 5mlines at set pieces) ? Be silent unless ref asks you a question, lots of smiles etc and watch fr how ref manages the game, his communication, his positioning, etc

Introduce yourself before the match to the Society Refs, tell you are newly ELRA qualified and want to get experience by watching them, and ask for post match chat to answer questions you have. BUT DON'T QUERY DECISIONS DURING THE MATCH !

As for pre-match talks, when you referee there are a few threads on here with good advice (use the search utility above), but my main advice is keep it short : just cover the basics only (scrum engagement, back foot at tackle / ruck / maul and 10m/5m, and skippers keep them quiet please, all queries through you the skippers). Long pre-match chats are often a sign of inexperienced or anally retentive lower grade refs (usually !) Donlot be tricked into answering questions about "when is it out sir, hands on ?", " how do you referee the tackle", etc.