Self doubt requiring clearing up...........

[taff426]

Refereed a game last week, a thoroughly enjoyable fixture it must be said, however, the scenario below is my only downside to the game.......

Greens are trying to get out of their own 22 when they knock on 15m from their own try line. I play advantage, reds then start attacking. 6m from the green try line reds fumble the ball backwards, a green player gathers it (reds slow to react) and boots the ball out behind his own goal line.

I call advantage not over, so go back to the initial green knock on and award scrum to reds 15m from try line. Red Captain (very politely) asks 'should we not have the 5m scrum Sir as it's more advantageous?'

I replied by saying no, as a further offence hadn't occurred so there was no further advantage that could be gained. In all fairness, red captain says ok and carries on, no other questions from him.

After the game I did start questioning myself regarding this decision however, as red would have gained more advantage from the 5m scrum.

Was I right or wrong to award the scrum at the place of the knock on? Answers on a postcard please............

 

[Waspsfan]

I presume that green gather it after the red fumble still in the field of play and then kick it out behind the dead ball line. If so, it is not 'another offence' the red captain wants but rather he wants you to say 'advantage over' and restart with a scrum 5. As such what you said to him wasn't really right.

A more important question however is why were you still playing advantage at all? Red have clear possession in the opposition 22 and had made 9m of ground. From a scrum advantage this to me would definitely be advantage over.

 

[taff426]

They may have made ground, but to be fair, they didn't gain any advantage in my opinion. It was a very scrappy advance, and with hindsight, I should have brought them back earlier. Reds were advancing, but the ball was fumbled (backwards) more than once, and it was very fortuitous they got that far.

 

[Adam]

Progress beyond the gain line, or had the freedom to play is 'advantage over' from an 'advantage scrum' offence. If you were playing 'advantage penalty' then what you did was appropriate, provided they could get immediate quick ball from the first breakdown (as a rule of thumb).

 

[Taffy]

From the point of view of a feel for the game your reading sounds spot on. There's always a clever captain with a quip! I have brought back to original offence in a similar situation and said advantage not over. Guess it is debatable but certainly wouldn't beat yourself up about it.

 

[ddjamo]

I presume that green gather it after the red fumble still in the field of play and then kick it out behind the dead ball line. If so, it is not 'another offence' the red captain wants but rather he wants you to say 'advantage over' and restart with a scrum 5. As such what you said to him wasn't really right.

A more important question however is why were you still playing advantage at all? Red have clear possession in the opposition 22 and had made 9m of ground. From a scrum advantage this to me would definitely be advantage over.

x2

get those scrum adv's over appropriately near the line or it's easy to get caught up in a trick bag.

 

[OB..]

What can a team normally expect to get from a scrum? Clean possession and the opportunity to play the ball as they wish. Gain in ground? Not much.

For me a 9m gain sounds plenty regardless of how it was achieved.

 

[Taff]

They may have made ground, but to be fair, they didn't gain any advantage in my opinion. It was a very scrappy advance, and with hindsight, I should have brought them back earlier. Reds were advancing, but the ball was fumbled (backwards) more than once, and it was very fortuitous they got that far.

I find advantage reasonably straightforward (which usually means I'm missing something) but assessors keep complimenting on it so I assume I'm doing it right.

I find it really helps if you put yourself in the players mind - eg if I was the Captain of the team with the advantage, would I want to carry on with the attack or would I prefer it if the Ref blew up and took us back to the original offence? There comes a tipping point, where you would rather carry on playing, which to me suggests that advantage is over. Eg if the team were relieved if the whistle went, it would suggest they weren't gaining an advantage - and vice versa.

And if I'm in doubt I just ask them. Eg "Scrum advantage to Blue. Do you want it?" I don't think I've had an opposition player answering for them - but I suppose we should be aware it could happen.

 

[Phil E]

Greens are trying to get out of their own 22 when they knock on 15m from their own try line. I play advantage, reds then start attacking. 6m from the green try line.............

Past the gain line, scrum advantage over. IMO you should have called advantage over before you got to this point.

 

[FightOrFlight]

The IRFU actually had a specific guideline that they were hammering home last season on knock on advantage. The general line was gain decent possession and take contact on your own terms and that is advantage over.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

The IRFU actually had a specific guideline that they were hammering home last season on knock on advantage. The general line was gain decent possession and take contact on your own terms and that is advantage over.

Irrespective of where you are relative to the spot where the offence occurred?

I prefer Phil E's take on it.

 

[beckett50]

They may have made ground, but to be fair, they didn't gain any advantage in my opinion. It was a very scrappy advance, and with hindsight, I should have brought them back earlier. Reds were advancing, but the ball was fumbled (backwards) more than once, and it was very fortuitous they got that far.

IMO the best Law in the book is the Law of Advantage.

However, consider the level of possession that Red would have gained from a set piece scrum. In your scenario Red have had possession for a good 16m, what's to say that the possession from the scrum wouldn't have been any less scrappy?

From what you describe the advantage was well and truly taken. Had the original offence been a PK then I would agree that advantage had not been gained, but they had both gain in ground and time in possession.

- - - Updated - - -

They may have made ground, but to be fair, they didn't gain any advantage in my opinion. It was a very scrappy advance, and with hindsight, I should have brought them back earlier. Reds were advancing, but the ball was fumbled (backwards) more than once, and it was very fortuitous they got that far.

IMO the best Law in the book is the Law of Advantage.

However, consider the level of possession that Red would have gained from a set piece scrum. In your scenario Red have had possession for a good 16m, what's to say that the possession from the scrum wouldn't have been any less scrappy?

From what you describe the advantage was well and truly taken. Had the original offence been a PK then I would agree that advantage had not been gained, but they had both gain in ground and time in possession.

 

[Pegleg]

For me it certainly looks like advantage over. However, you were there and not I.

 

[FightOrFlight]

Irrespective of where you are relative to the spot where the offence occurred?

I prefer Phil E's take on it.

Decent possession and contact on your terms is to imply that you get clean ball and carry the contact the way you would want to...most likely up to or over the gain line. The point was to remind the referee that they were not punishing the knock on.

If the opposition get the ball one pass away from the point of gather and they break or carry forward in the tackle we are coached to call it over....2 passes away from the point(say ruck to 10 to 12) is also advantage over.

 

[OB..]

Decent possession and contact on your terms is to imply that you get clean ball and carry the contact the way you would want to...most likely up to or over the gain line. The point was to remind the referee that they were not punishing the knock on.

If the opposition get the ball one pass away from the point of gather and they break or carry forward in the tackle we are coached to call it over....2 passes away from the point(say ruck to 10 to 12) is also advantage over.

It is perfectly possible for two or three passes to leave a team many metres back from where they started because of solid pressure defence. I do not regard that as an advantage.

 

[Browner]

What can a team normally expect to get from a scrum? Clean possession and the opportunity to play the ball as they wish. Gain in ground?

Plus You get the defence set 5m away from the rear of the scrum whilst x8 (9 if you consider the SH) opposition players committed to a small area , giving the attacking side a fair bit of space to exploit.

As a captain, if given the choice , I'd choose a scrum with feed 15m out , rather than possession from a ruck 10m out where oppo have 11\12\13 players lined up waiting.

 

[FightOrFlight]

It is perfectly possible for two or three passes to leave a team many metres back from where they started because of solid pressure defence. I do not regard that as an advantage.

It is also possible that the point of contact has moved far from the point of gather. The advantage as I see it is the chance to move the ball away from the point of gather and not necessarily an advantage in territory. I would class it as an advantage more to re-establishing structure/organisation.

The guideline we were given was based on the idea that knock on advantage allows for the team to gather the ball and have a freedom to establish a structure to their attack...much the same as a scrum does. If they can apply a structure advantage is over. So Knock on by red.....blue 7 goes down and gathers and carries a few inches and is tackled. 3 blue picks and is tackled not much further forward but ball is secure. 9 passes to 10 who crashes it up with 12...13 and 11 ruck over to secure the ball 9 has players to play off now and that would be advantage over. Blue have an established structured attack but not necessarily a gain in ground much like a scrum would give them.


There is of course the issue of shorter advantage to teams who are getting mangled in the scrums and the appreciation that the last thing they want is to have a scrum!

 

[OB..]

It is also possible that the point of contact has moved far from the point of gather. The advantage as I see it is the chance to move the ball away from the point of gather and not necessarily an advantage in territory. I would class it as an advantage more to re-establishing structure/organisation.

I have difficulty seeing that establishing a structure several metrea back from the mark for the scrum is a more of an advantage than having the scrum.

The guideline we were given was based on the idea that knock on advantage allows for the team to gather the ball and have a freedom to establish a structure to their attack...much the same as a scrum does. !

Going back to the scrum would therefore give them the same freedom to establish a structure to their attack, but several metres further up-field.

 

[FightOrFlight]

I have difficulty seeing that establishing a structure several metrea back from the mark for the scrum is a more of an advantage than having the scrum.

Going back to the scrum would therefore give them the same freedom to establish a structure to their attack, but several metres further up-field.

I think this may be a little bit cultural. There is a big emphasis here on avoiding stopping play or awarding scrums unless it is obviously necessary. The ethos the Leinster Branch are passing down to underage and high domestic is play the ball and do not count so much on set piece. Scrum advantage here is set out as a method of allowing the gathering team to get themselves transitioned from defensive shape to attacking shape and get on the front foot...no more.

If a team gathers the ball and are pushed 5m+ backward within 2 phases and do not look like they are stable in attack or comfortable then yes I would call it back for the scrum but of they can play and set a structure to their attack away from the point of gather I would call it over even if they do not gain any ground.

 

[Dickie E]

What can a team normally expect to get from a scrum? Clean possession and the opportunity to play the ball as they wish. Gain in ground? Not much.

For me a 9m gain sounds plenty regardless of how it was achieved.

Agree in realtion to OP but if it was achieved by, for example, a weak kick under pressure or by defenders fumbling it backwards I would not consider it advantage over