Several not straights

[breako]

A team keeps throwing ball in not straight? Sanction needs to be escalated. Is it a PK or FK? Thanks.

 

[didds]

why/how are they not throwing straight... is it the same thrower? What level is it?

By this I mean..

* are they just hopeless?
* have they demonstrated that they are trying to mitigate what they are doing, even if it just gets somebody else not throwing in straight?

If it just that it is a low level game, and the throwers are rubbish, it would seem incredibly harsh to YC, or even eventually RC (2 x YC) somebody just because they are unable to throw straight. Especially down the levels it may be that this is a social team 9ie dosn;t go to training) that through injuries, cry-offs, work shifts, illness etc just has nobody able to throw straight.

The end answer may be simply just keep offering the options for non-straight.


If of course its a level 3 semi pro team then all the sanctions may be requied... but that still doesn't mean the above isn't the case...

didds

 

[didds]

sorry - just realsied I hadn;t quite read your OP correctly!

If you have to escalate I'd say its a PK for persistent infringements. And TBH a FK to the oppo in this situation is no better than the option (lineout or scrum) anyway...

didds

 

[Jacko]

I would never increase sanction for not straight throw at lineout. Sometimes a hooker gets the yips - doesn't mean you should be penalising.

If you are actually referring to feeding at scrum, then escalation goes,
FK
PK
PK with warning
PK + YC
PK + RC

 

[Adam]

Why would you escalate? You wouldn't escalate sanction for multiple forward passes! Just award scrum/LO option accordingly.

 

[The umpire]

Had similar last week in a friendly, but it was both teams who were incapable. Ended up with a 2m gap, "see if you can hit that".

He couldn't

 

[OB..]

If they all go the same way, you might get suspicious ...

 

[Browner]

A team keeps throwing ball in not straight? Sanction needs to be escalated. Is it a PK or FK? Thanks.

19.7(c) says PK

[LAWS]A player must not intentionally or repeatedly throw the ball in not straight.[/LAWS]

Law seems to disregard Intent or ability as irrelevant , mere fact being sufficient (albeit apply contextual judgement in junior games)

 

[Taff]

If they all go the same way, you might get suspicious ...

Exactly. The throwers do tend to have plenty of excuses, but you hardly ever see a not-straight throw in favour of the opposition. :chin:

 

[Decorily]

If you are actually referring to feeding at scrum, then escalation goes,
FK
PK
PK with warning
PK + YC
PK + RC[/QUOTE

Only at elite levels...FK at Grassroots.

 

[Browner]

If you are actually referring to feeding at scrum, then escalation goes,
FK
PK
PK with warning
PK + YC
PK + RC

Only at elite levels...FK at Grassroots.

Note ....OP is in the Lineout Forum not the Scrum Forum, but that aside.......


Decorily, continually FK'ing a scrum not straight very much depends on how you define 'Grassroots' .......

To me, if would have to be the very lowest of level of social rugby, say ......... ????...... In fact I'm struggling to think of a level where I wouldn't escalate to at least a PK (or beyond) for continually crooked feeding...... Maybe an U10 girls friendly !

There is no debate over Lineouts, 19.7(c) sanction is explicit. But in saying that, the very windiest of days might bring some contextual judgement into my thinking.

 

[Taff]

Only at elite levels...FK at Grassroots.

Not here.

I referee as close to "grass roots" as you can get, and we've been told to escalate crooked feeds at scrums as per above ie FK, PK, PK & warning, PK & YC etc. Personally, I like it - it adds an extra bit of excitement to scrum time.

 

[tim White]

A Free Kick for 'not straight' is one thing, putting it in 'not straight' after you have been FK'd and warned previously is another kettle of fish entirely and referees should treat it as such.

 

[ChrisR]

Not straight at line-out is hugely different from not straight at scrum.

With a scrum the put in only has to go about a meter and a crooked feed is a deliberate attempt to cheat and the ops have no chance at the ball. Therefore escalating the sanction is very appropriate.

With line-outs it's very different. Only the most skilled could shade the throw as it's tough enough to get it down the middle as it is. Plus an inaccurate thrower may just as likely favor the opponents. Therefore, for me, repeat failures to get it straight don't get escalated sanctions.

 

[Browner]

Therefore, for me, repeat failures to get it straight don't get escalated sanctions.

A PK isn't an escalated sanction, it is THE sanction.

[LAWS] 19.7 (c)
A player must not intentionally or repeatedly throw the ball in not straight.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line
[/LAWS]

Referees should apply it the same as any other Law, if appropriate.

 

[winchesterref]

So what is repeated? Third offence? In what timescale?

I can't see how penalising poor skill at the lineout throw is helpful for anyone really. Yet to see anyone who has convinced me they've deliberately angled a throw in. Taking a leaf from crossref's manual, how are we judging intention on this?

 

[menace]

Your 'intention' yard stick is generally directly correlated to your empathy yard stick!

 

[Browner]

So what is repeated? Third offence? In what timescale?

I can't see how penalising poor skill at the lineout throw is helpful for anyone really. Yet to see anyone who has convinced me they've deliberately angled a throw in. Taking a leaf from crossref's manual, how are we judging intention on this?

It might encourage the hookers to practice more?!

Seriously , most u10s can lob the ball in fairly straight most of the time, so it can't be that difficult?

' repeated ' is defined in 10.3(c) , so maybe smilar for here...? Discuss ...

If you're advocating ignoring this Law, then inform the RFU to lobby for its removal, until then ....use your judgement, it may be needed to refocus a throwers bias.

 

[RobLev]

So what is repeated? Third offence? In what timescale?

I can't see how penalising poor skill at the lineout throw is helpful for anyone really. Yet to see anyone who has convinced me they've deliberately angled a throw in. Taking a leaf from crossref's manual, how are we judging intention on this?

On repetition - if you keep getting penalised, you might be motivated actually to put in the effort to do the job properly?

On intentionality - poor throwers don't favour one team?

If a thrower is spraying it around equally, then he's just a poor thrower. If (more often than not) his misses are to the left on one side of the pitch, and to the right on the other, both favouring his own catchers, he's intentionally throwing in not straight.

How many "poor throwers" do you see regularly throwing to the opposition?

 

[Nigib]

So what is repeated? Third offence? In what timescale?

I can't see how penalising poor skill at the lineout throw is helpful for anyone really. Yet to see anyone who has convinced me they've deliberately angled a throw in. Taking a leaf from crossref's manual, how are we judging intention on this?

Agree it's extremely difficult to judge intention not to throw straight, and I start by assuming lack of skill. However, what about a short throw to the front, straight at their player? Can't sensibly argue there that it wasn't intentional - although IME most short throws don't make it 5m so get pinged accordingly.