Shoulder brush = automatic RC?

[Mike Selig]

Hi all,

Not sure which section I should've put this in so plumped for "was it right?" and be done.

Yesterday I found myself outside in the pouring rain doing a college cup tie between Blue and Green. Green won on PKs (!) but that's another story. Game was fiercely competitive, but played in very good spirit, and I managed (I thought) to keep a lid on it pretty well, a couple of warnings, one to Blue who had just committed 3 penalisable offences in 3 successive rucks, one to both teams to cut down on the "advice". Teams reacted pretty well to instructions, although am somewhat hoarse this morning. 2 tries apiece in the end. Thought I got too stationary at ruck time, but otherwise quite pleased with my performance.

the incident I wanted to ask you kind people about happened early in the 2nd period of Extra-time. Blue knocked on in an unobvious way (by which I mean that not all of Blue entirely agreed with my view of the knock-on). Blue 16 as he was walking past me brushed his shoulder against mine. Initial impression was he could have avoided the contact but chose not to, but did pull out at the last moment somewhat (he was a big fella, could've sent me flying if he'd wanted). Needless to say I wasn't best pleased.

Loud whistle and "time off, blue 16 and captain come here please". As 16 comes towards me he starts apologising "sorry sir, didn't mean to sir" which kinda reinforces my view that contact wasn't entirely accidental (surely he'd just looked bemused if that was the case?). Now I believed at this stage that flashing cards would only ignite the game further (everyone was a bit tired by this stage), so didn't RC him (exact words were "brush shoulders with me again and a penalty will be the least of your worries, now back 10 please" "yes sir, sorry sir"), but this morning in the light of day am torn between thinking that I did well not getting bigger than the game, and worrying that I rather bottled it.

Thoughts?

 

[ddjamo]

tied in extra time - good call mike. I feel you were right.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Mike, sounds to me that you got it right, and were big enough to deal with it in the context of a full blooded College Cup match. He had realised his error, you made your point and managed it well. A RC might have been an over-reaction and inflamatory.

Being more specific, if Blues were Trinity and Greens were Queens RC him anyway, as Trinty always were cheating b*stards ! Of course it would never happened if it had been Reds (Jesus !) :wink:

 

[SimonSmith]

Dissenting voice here.

If you feel it's deliberate, he goes. Extra time, 48th minute, tied or a blow out.

If you don't think it's deliberate and a genuine accident, then let it go.

That said, without seeing it, it's really difficult to say. You alone know the degree of deliberation that went into it.

 

[Davet]

I would agree, a RC for what was no more than a brush would have been OTT. Refs need to keep a sense of proportion. If it had been a proper barge, then different matter - as you say he knew he was wrong, he apologised, and he knew clearly what would be the end result of further local difficulties.

I do undertsand the possible opinion that he may have been trying to intimidate you, and while it failed on you it may work with next week's ref. I think that while he needs to understand clearly that what he did was wrong, and that refs will not be intimidated, you got that message across. I hope next weeks will too; without resorting to the over-reaction that may signal doubt and uncertainty in the refs mind - getting agressive back (by RC) as a defensive reaction.

You handled it in a grown up way, which is good.

 

[rocco]

Mike, I hope I would manage it as well as you did. I feel you were firm yet balanced.

 

[ddjamo]

Dissenting voice here.

If you feel it's deliberate, he goes. Extra time, 48th minute, tied or a blow out.

If you don't think it's deliberate and a genuine accident, then let it go.

That said, without seeing it, it's really difficult to say. You alone know the degree of deliberation that went into it.

recent meeting with richard every on the floor he gave us specific expectations to situations like that....and he really emphasized the extra time/tied match/last scrum situations. he explained that many times the players are so worked up they don't realize what they are doing and we need to be the level headed ones.

just repeating what I was told to do by the top dog.

 

[Phil E]

What Davet said.

RC OTT. Well handled.

 

[SimonSmith]

recent meeting with richard every on the floor he gave us specific expectations to situations like that....and he really emphasized the extra time/tied match/last scrum situations. he explained that many times the players are so worked up they don't realize what they are doing and we need to be the level headed ones.

just repeating what I was told to do by the top dog.

Us being the level headed ones does not excuse barging the referee deliberately.
To carry his rationale further, that gives room to excuse punching the opposition - "sorry ref. It's extra time, and I didn't realize what I was doing".

We do have to be level headed. But the minute I get pushed, shoved, shoulder barged, the offending player is going to walk.

 

[Greg Collins]

interesting. I got knocked over in my first L9 game. the L6 ref playing for the knockers oppo said afterwards YC minimum. I said but it was from behind and didn't know who it was or if it was deliberate. he said call the skiiper(s) over and intone "find me the player" and then bin him. for the sake of next weeks ref "nothing happens by accident" he said.

 

[PeterH]

I saw a National League ref doing a L8 game (must have been a quiet week ) ask skipper to bring him the player who stamped/raked an opponents hammie cos it was a YC offence - if you don't then I am going to YC the next player who infringes at all and the unseen stamp was out of order - so the skipper went away and the miscreant came forward...

Stern bollocking (no YC) and a warning that the next time he did any more than push or pass he would be off

Problem was well (if bizarrely ) managed and a trouble free afternoon followed...

Not sure I would get away with it!!

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I watched an area trophy match (L8, 9,10, 11 First Teams and L5, 6, 7 seconds) a few seasons ago when a player from my club was sent off (RC) for a perceived barge. Referee was persuaded by Club's and Society big wigs (who were watching) that it was an accident and I don't think it was reported.

 

[Davet]

I remember being told by Morts (ex-Hants director of refs) that if you were barged then you were stood in the wrong place.

During the action in a game I am in complete agreement with that.

If its just walking back to a restart, and its a slight brush, I think Mike's action was the right ix of punishment without getting personally upset and escalating a situation that was already back under control.

If it's more than that, and it feels aggressive then yes, RC.

But managing situations is all about the precise circumstances and arriving at a judgement based on all of them - no hard and fast rules.

 

[PaulDG]

I remember being told by Morts (ex-Hants director of refs) that if you were barged then you were stood in the wrong place.

I did a school match early in the season and one of the scrum halves collided with me - he took an unexpected line; I was in his way.

My nose and mouth started bleeding and I blew the whistle and called the captains over.

By the look on the face of the captain who's scrum half it was, he clearly expected to be playing with 14 men for the rest of the game.

I think he was more than a little surprised when I apologised to both captains and said we'd have to stop the game for a few minutes while hopefully the bleeding stopped and then we'd be restarting with a scrum to the side going forward! (Which we did about 5 minutes later.)

 

[Mike Selig]

Thanks for the comments all. My view was that a RC would have further inflamed the situation, which wasn't what the game required. Player seemed genuinely apologetic and repentant, pretty sure he won't do it again.

Simon T, nope not Trinity, clearly had it been there's no way we'd have gone to extra-time as by that stage they'd have only 12 players left on the pitch after the 25th penalty given against them (disclaimer: I know a few people from Trinity, and not all of them are overly cheating aggressive rugby players - the rest are mathmos who live permanently in the clouds).