Skipper-Ref relationship...

[Bungle]

No, not a thread about rugby love...something less salacious alas! :biggrin:

What do you consider to be the key points we should take into account into our relationship with skippers? I'm more talking about during the game rather than the briefing - of course, get that right and you save yourself a lot of misunderstandings.

The reason I ask is early on in my career I was warned that skippers will try and 'mug' you into giving things that aren't there - and it is a mortal sign of weakness to give in to his demands. Yet on Saturday the skipper felt I didn't give him anything despite him asking me to look at stuff. After our discussion in the clubhouse he admitted that I had responded to concerns over backline offsides, had positioned myself well to spot them and that I had played advantage from one which led to a try, but he still felt I wasn't responding to his requests in other areas. The reality was I checked and the areas were fine - but didn't necessarily feed it back that I had checked. I decided it was an area of my game to reconsider to see if there were improvements needed.

I believe there is a delicate balance. You need a skipper to work with you - enforcing discipline, keeping a lid - yet cannot be seen to be too close, especially if it is a close, tight game. It is the case of course that some skippers are great, others are crap - we work with what we are given and have to adapt. The issues which come to mind are these:

- how best to balance 'responding to requests' with the need to keep independence and authority.
- how to prevent offences after a skipper's request without being seen as a mug. (At the scrum I often use a quick phrase before setting it to show response without the need to penalise e.g. 'reminder lads, feet down before the ball is in please' and this works well).
- knowing when to have a word and when not - too much communication (e.g. feedback all the time as expected above) vs too little?
- the distinction between clarification of decisions rather than questioning them (a key point of my pre-match briefing) and enforcing the boundary.

This is an issue of game and relationship management and I've got my own views on how to manage this but I'd love to hear your insights so I can check and challenge this aspect of my game.

Cheers

 

[OB..]

The crucial thing is to make sure that you are in charge, not the "helpful" captain. Be polite ("Thank you. I am checking it") but not encouraging, or you will upset the opposition. If he is persistent, stop him.

Remember that he is asking because he thinks that will give him an advantage.

 

[Dixie]

I find that many of the things I am asked to watch for are unrealistic - a bit of afters, sir, when your back is turned. I will do my best, of course - but my field of vision is only so large. Others I'm most commonly asked to look out for are the crooked feed and foot up. However, when I do refocus attention on these areas, I often find the error is marginal, and that both sides are taking advantage. How will the skipper react if the first FKor PK you award to bring these technicalities back into compliance is against his team?

In every match, I'm trying to spot everyhting, and I'm allowing a certain latitude in some areas. If this latitude proves problematic, then I am generally happy to withdraw it - but I do feel it's only fair to inform both skippers. If I'm missing something I should be spotting, such as back row binding, I'll turn more attention to it from time to time - but not to the exclusion of all else.

If I analyse my approach to these requests from skippers, I find that my most common reaction to them is to alert both sides to a complaint, and tell them to behave themselves. I'm unlikely to ping the action at the next breakdown - that smacks of selling out - but will be watching for it at the next two or three. If it occurs from either side, it gets pinged per warning. If not, I assume the warning has had its effect and we move on.

To be honest, I find most of these requests irritating, as I'm always doing my best. But I try not to discourage them - nor to raise unrealistic expectations.

 

[SimonSmith]

I think you're trying to stop a horse that may have already bolted.

Think about adding it to the pre match briefing, and head it off there. I know most of the lippy teams in my area, so I know for which ones I need to deploy the "keep it positive and don't tell me what you think I'm missing speech"

 

[OB..]

But I try not to discourage them

Why? Do you really find it helpful to have one team telling you what to do?

 

[Emmet Murphy]

Think about what he's saying, how he's saying it and when he says it. I'm happy for skippers to speak to me at natural breaks (scrum, lineout, injury) but I don't like being asked more than once to look for a particular offence. If you get asked again tell them you're aware and end the conversation. If they ask at a penalty for the opposition, give a very quick explanation and again end the conversation. If you think he is trying it on don't be afraid to move him 10m back - I did that on Saturday with one skipper 30 mins in because he was coming up to me after every penalty I gave against his team.

Generally speaking if you are strong and trust yourself and your judgement you'll be fine ... the captains and players you really need to watch out for are the ones who try to kiss your ar*e - for me those ones present the biggest management challenges!

 

[FlipFlop]

If they ask at a penalty for the opposition, give a very quick explanation and again end the conversation.

This is one thing I think you shouldn't allow, and I brief a captain to say I won't talk to them when their team has been penalised, they can chat at the next lineout/scrum/ball out of play/the bar. Why? 1) it can be used to slow down the ball 2) By delaying them talking to you, they tend to "forget" what they wanted to ask (amazingly they can actually read the signals you give, but if you give them the chance, they'll want to have a discussion with you!)

As for the captains asking to watch out for stuff, I'll say "okay", if they ask again, I'll say that I'm happy so far, and add that I heard them the first time, and please don't ask again.

 

[Emmet Murphy]

I know what you mean FlipFlop - when I say 'quick' I mean very quick: eg "Hands in the ruck. Back you go". There has been more than one occasion where the other team has tapped and I've gone with them leaving the skipper there by himself!!

 

[SimonSmith]

I know what you mean FlipFlop - when I say 'quick' I mean very quick: eg "Hands in the ruck. Back you go". There has been more than one occasion where the other team has tapped and I've gone with them leaving the skipper there by himself!!

Isn't that part of your normal penalty-patter anyway?

Peep-signal-explanation...

 

[Emmet Murphy]

Isn't that part of your normal penalty-patter anyway?

Peep-signal-explanation...

It's not a very good example when you put it like that! What I meant was any conversation I will have will be three-four words in length and will include an instruction telling him to retire.

 

[Dixie]

Why? Do you really find it helpful to have one team telling you what to do?

Particularly at the youth age grades, I do find it helpful to know which areas the testosterone-fuelled lumps find annoying. Left unchecked, these can become flashpoints very quickly.

 

[SimonSmith]

Hmmmm, not so sure I agree with that. Translated through a negative frame - I rely upon the players to tell me what I might be missing.

Not a big fan of that, because I think that that's what the players will end up thinking.

The dynamic needs to be that you are in control; you should also have confidence in your ability to manage the game. Also remember this: given player knowledge of the law, I can see situations where players are getting annoyed by perfectly legitimate play by the opposition. If that's the case, they need to manage that frustration themselves - I'm not a release valve.

 

[beckett50]

Agree with Simon on this.

If a skipper draws something to my attention I will acknowledge it as a valid concern, and tell him that I will look for it and penalise it if I feel it warranted. I may also reply to him with an area for him to talk to a specific player - eg tight head binding is starting to slip etc. Only a minor thing in the big picture of the match, but may just make him think.

In terms of Captains questioning penalties, I also give the "only at lineout/scrum/dead-ball etc" speech. Often helps to give the player number as you give the secondary signal for the offence - e.g. In at the side #7 blue. That way the skipper has no excuse for not knowing what and who!

At the end of the day, you have to develop your own way. I would, however, suggest that the worst thing to do is blank the bloke and usher him away. As one of my old Housemasters used to say "Manners cost nothing"

 

[SimonSmith]

If a skipper draws something to my attention I will acknowledge it as a valid concern, and tell him that I will look for it and penalise it if I feel it warranted. I may also reply to him with an area for him to talk to a specific player - eg tight head binding is starting to slip etc. Only a minor thing in the big picture of the match, but may just make him think.

"ref, can you watch their loose head's binding?"
"If I wasn't so busy having to watch your loosehead doing the same thing, I probably would <cheesy grin>"

Acknowledges what h'e said, as well as telling him that there's a line he's close to crossing