South Africa v NZ

[leaguerefaus]

A South African player is offside at the penalty kick which won South Africa the game...

[LAWS]21.4
h. Behind the ball. All the kicker's team at a penalty or free kick must be behind the ball until it has been kicked, except the placer for a place kick.[/LAWS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7wgsRT_O4 (about 5:45)

 

[The Fat]

A South African player is offside at the penalty kick which won South Africa the game...

[LAWS]21.4
h. Behind the ball. All the kicker's team at a penalty or free kick must be behind the ball until it has been kicked, except the placer for a place kick.[/LAWS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7wgsRT_O4 (about 5:45)

If you're talking about the player standing beside Wayne Barnes, I don't think there would be an elite panel referee anywhere in the world who would pull that back

 

[menace]

You're not seriously thinking that half-metre in front should have been called and the kick disallowed?

Remember materiality! (Exactly what impact did he have on the play)

 

[The Fat]

On a side note, the SA captain is a class act. His team had just pulled off a win against the ABs (a very rare feat) but he still didn't forget to mention RMC's milestone or the fact that the crowd should give the ABs a round of applause as they needed to remember that the ABs did win the championship.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I didn't have any concerns about the offside as it wasn't material IMO.

As for the match itself, while I can't say I'm ever happy when the All Blacks lose, this one doesn't bother me all that much. South Africa had everything stacked in their favour; second week at home while the ABs had to travel from Argentina, home advantage, Ellis Park and the altitude, and in the end, the only difference between the two teams was... one conversion!

One thing does concern me with the NH elite referees and that is they seem to continually ignore the requirement for the jacklers to jackle for the ball on their feet and unsupported. Several times in this match WB (and in the Argentina v Australia match, St Nige) allowed jacklers (from both sides) to either place their hands beyond the ball, and "sweep back", to rest their elbows on the ground or to lean their knees on the body of the tackled player. This is illegal and the NH referees need to start penalising it.

As for WB, I thought he had a good game and allowed it to flow, and I could not find fault with any of his decisions. He contributed to the excellent spectacle that it was. It seems he has even learned that it is acceptable to award a match-winning PK in the last couple of minutes of a match. Pity it took him nearly seven years grow the pair he needed to do so!:biggrin:

 

[talbazar]

A South African player is offside at the penalty kick which won South Africa the game...

[LAWS]21.4
h. Behind the ball. All the kicker's team at a penalty or free kick must be behind the ball until it has been kicked, except the placer for a place kick.[/LAWS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7wgsRT_O4 (about 5:45)

[LAWS]11.1 Offside in general play
(a)
A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:
Interferes with play or,
Moves forward, towards the ball or
Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).
A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
A player can be offside in the in-goal.[/LAWS]

 

[damo]

I think the last penalty was a bit dubious. Green 20 is in the side and blocking the cleanout, and the tackler doesn't make much of a release before going back on the ball. Link I came across on another site:

http://www.gfycat.com/PettyUnfortunateHagfish#

 

[Ronald]

I didn't have any concerns about the offside as it wasn't material IMO.


One thing does concern me with the NH elite referees and that is they seem to continually ignore the requirement for the jacklers to jackle for the ball on their feet and unsupported. Several times in this match WB (and in the Argentina v Australia match, St Nige) allowed jacklers (from both sides) to either place their hands beyond the ball, and "sweep back", to rest their elbows on the ground or to lean their knees on the body of the tackled player. This is illegal and the NH referees need to start penalising it.

I was going to ask exactly the same question...in South Africa we are taught as soon as the 1st arriving player places his hands on the ground past the ball, he is not supporting his body weight. He either has to reload or get out of the way, or I will ping him.

 

[Taff]

A South African player is offside at the penalty kick which won South Africa the game.

Technically yes, but it's totally immaterial.

... Green 20 is in the side and blocking the cleanout

If I was the SA coach I would be having a stern word with Green 20 at 6 mins 9 seconds into that clip. His side are 2 points ahead of the ABs in injury time and he's coming in from the side, just outside his 22. Would anyone have been surprised if WB had penalised his for side entry - and for the ABs to win the game with the last kick?

 

[menace]

I didn't have any concerns about the offside as it wasn't material IMO.

As for the match itself, while I can't say I'm ever happy when the All Blacks lose, this one doesn't bother me all that much. South Africa had everything stacked in their favour; second week at home while the ABs had to travel from Argentina, home advantage, Ellis Park and the altitude, and in the end, the only difference between the two teams was... one conversion!

One thing does concern me with the NH elite referees and that is they seem to continually ignore the requirement for the jacklers to jackle for the ball on their feet and unsupported. Several times in this match WB (and in the Argentina v Australia match, St Nige) allowed jacklers (from both sides) to either place their hands beyond the ball, and "sweep back", to rest their elbows on the ground or to lean their knees on the body of the tackled player. This is illegal and the NH referees need to start penalising it.

As for WB, I thought he had a good game and allowed it to flow, and I could not find fault with any of his decisions. He contributed to the excellent spectacle that it was. It seems he has even learned that it is acceptable to award a match-winning PK in the last couple of minutes of a match. Pity it took him nearly seven years grow the pair he needed to do so!:biggrin:

Bwaaa haaa haa...that's like saying we Wallabies fans didn't mind being embarrassed by pumas! BULLSH!T! We hated that! Aussies were soft and their own worst enemies giving away breakdown PKs!

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your post ianC. My 16yo son and I were regularly yelling at the TV set that the jackler was 'OFF HIS FEET NIGEL!!' And if a 16 yo can spot it then why the hell couldn't NO!

On another note, Puma players would surely be ashamed of their fan base for shining lazers in the eyes of Aussie kickers to put him off (not yo mention the jeering). Though the effin coaches box seemed pleased and relished the fact that it worked).

 

[OB..]

And if a 16 yo can spot it then why the hell couldn't NO!

Is that really a compelling argument? :biggrin:

 

[Ian_Cook]

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your post ianC. My 16yo son and I were regularly yelling at the TV set that the jackler was 'OFF HIS FEET NIGEL!!' And if a 16 yo can spot it then why the hell couldn't NO!

I don't think its a matter of not being able to spot it menace. I just think they (NH elite referees) don't care.

If you watch AP/Pro12 you'll see this all the time; players placing their hands on the ground beyond the ball and "sweeping" backwards to scoop up the ball, and players leaning their forearms on the ground while trying to jackle. It almost looks like a coached technique.

I'll bet the NH grassroots referees on this forum don't allow it

On another note, Puma players would surely be ashamed of their fan base for shining lazers in the eyes of Aussie kickers to put him off (not yo mention the jeering). Though the effin coaches box seemed pleased and relished the fact that it worked).

100%. It happened to Beauden Barrett last week too.

The UAR need to address this and find the people responsible. The trouble is that it is damned difficult to do. A laser beam is invisible until it hits a target and its source is pretty much invisible for anyone who isn't within a small fraction of a degree out to about 10 degrees either side of its path, depending on the type of laser.

I think what needs to happen is a pre-arrangement to have the kicker to note the approximate area of the crowd they see the laser in and to tell the referee who then relays that information to the authorities. All the ground cameras except one to look at the crowd at that end of the ground while the kick is being taken and the subsequent video is searched for someone pointing a laser.

Another way might be to put a bounty on the laser user; broadcast a ground announcement before the match that there is a reward of US$5000 for anyone who catches a person using a laser, and a lifetime ban from all grounds for the person so caught. If the local fan who does this knows that people are now actively watching for him every time the opposition kicks for goal, it might act as a deterrent.

 

[Crucial]

While we are talking about 'fans' influencing the game, there needs to be stricter protocols on what the ground screen operator shows as replays.
With the Messam penalty (which I have no issue with at all) the home ground advantage came into play hugely with the screen producer showing the incident repeatedly until the crowd was incensed, the officials alterted and the Bok Captain able to point it out to WB.
WB had no option other than to come to the decision he did, which was the correct one IMO.
The issue I have is that earlier in the game Keiran Read was taken out with head contact at a ruck possibly in a penalisable incident and not one single replay was shown even during the time the game was stopped while he was being treated. McCaw even asked WB to review and was turned down. I'm sure the incident would have warranted a closer look had WB seen a replay. Instead WB had the option to decide it wasn't too bad from what he saw originally and carry on.

 

[menace]

I don't think its a matter of not being able to spot it menace. I just think they (NH elite referees) don't care.

If you watch AP/Pro12 you'll see this all the time; players placing their hands on the ground beyond the ball and "sweeping" backwards to scoop up the ball, and players leaning their forearms on the ground while trying to jackle. It almost looks like a coached technique.

I'll bet the NH grassroots referees on this forum don't allow it



100%. It happened to Beauden Barrett last week too.

The UAR need to address this and find the people responsible. The trouble is that it is damned difficult to do. A laser beam is invisible until it hits a target and its source is pretty much invisible for anyone who isn't within a small fraction of a degree out to about 10 degrees either side of its path, depending on the type of laser.

I think what needs to happen is a pre-arrangement to have the kicker to note the approximate area of the crowd they see the laser in and to tell the referee who then relays that information to the authorities. All the ground cameras except one to look at the crowd at that end of the ground while the kick is being taken and the subsequent video is searched for someone pointing a laser.

Another way might be to put a bounty on the laser user; broadcast a ground announcement before the match that there is a reward of US$5000 for anyone who catches a person using a laser, and a lifetime ban from all grounds for the person so caught. If the local fan who does this knows that people are now actively watching for him every time the opposition kicks for goal, it might act as a deterrent.

That and IRB introduce a law that says if player (or ball) is shone on by a laser light then the kick is to be retaken and players not permitted to charge. I reckon that will soon stop it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

While we are talking about 'fans' influencing the game, there needs to be stricter protocols on what the ground screen operator shows as replays.
With the Messam penalty (which I have no issue with at all) the home ground advantage came into play hugely with the screen producer showing the incident repeatedly until the crowd was incensed, the officials alterted and the Bok Captain able to point it out to WB.
WB had no option other than to come to the decision he did, which was the correct one IMO.
The issue I have is that earlier in the game Keiran Read was taken out with head contact at a ruck possibly in a penalisable incident and not one single replay was shown even during the time the game was stopped while he was being treated. McCaw even asked WB to review and was turned down. I'm sure the incident would have warranted a closer look had WB seen a replay. Instead WB had the option to decide it wasn't too bad from what he saw originally and carry on.

^^^THIS!!!

 

[Baylion]

While we are talking about 'fans' influencing the game, there needs to be stricter protocols on what the ground screen operator shows as replays.
With the Messam penalty (which I have no issue with at all) the home ground advantage came into play hugely with the screen producer showing the incident repeatedly until the crowd was incensed, the officials alterted and the Bok Captain able to point it out to WB.
WB had no option other than to come to the decision he did, which was the correct one IMO.
The issue I have is that earlier in the game Keiran Read was taken out with head contact at a ruck possibly in a penalisable incident and not one single replay was shown even during the time the game was stopped while he was being treated. McCaw even asked WB to review and was turned down. I'm sure the incident would have warranted a closer look had WB seen a replay. Instead WB had the option to decide it wasn't too bad from what he saw originally and carry on.

I cannot understand how a ref can decide not to review any incident where a player gets injured. Even a quick review should show whether there is something there to be looked at in depth or not. Normally this won't take up any time as the player is being treated.

This as an incident in a junior match in SA where a player fractured his neck vertebrae and even though there was approx a 10 min delay where the player was being stabilised and taken off the field the ref refused his captain's request for a review
http://youtu.be/5La8BUctrks

 

[crossref]

That and IRB introduce a law that says if player (or ball) is shone on by a laser light then the kick is to be retaken and players not permitted to charge. I reckon that will soon stop it.

it might encourage it -- shine a light on your own kicker and he gets two bites at the cherry.

 

[menace]

Fair point crossref...but if that happened then I'm sure the oppo fan base will see him/it and point him out to the appropriate authorities or deal with him backyard style, either way the laser is soon vanquished!

 

[Shane D]

How about the kicker makes the ref aware of it & the ref stops play until the laser stops. A pre-arrangement with the ground announcer to advise the crowd that play will not restart until the laser stops might also have an effect.

 

[Shane D]

surely the TMO can be given the authority to check any possible act of foul play as the game continues or at the next stoppage & then let the ref know that there is something for him to review. The camera often picks up things the ref misses in the flow of play & the TMO can quickly check these.