Stormers v Bulls 2nd try

[irishref]

Dutch version:

Een ruck is een speelfase waar een of meerdere spelers van beide teams, op hun voeten, in fysiek contact, om de bal die op de grond ligt zijn aangesloten. Open spel is beëindigd.


We have the Germanic tendency to throw the verbs at the end of the sentence, but my understanding of Dutch would suggest that the players are locked in physical contact over (or around) the ball that is on the ground, but certainly no mention is made of being close to - which would be "nabij" or "in de buurt van".

This does differ entirely to the afrikaans translation which states "close" or "nearby". My guess is the translater of the Dutch version had a better understanding of English than their Afrikaans counterpart :ireland:

 

[Browner]

White 5 goes for the ball, BC delays release enough to buy time for x2blues to adopt their clearout support arrival.
White 5 anticipates the hit and takes avoidance action
1st blue player misses him.
2nd blue player (blue 3) binds onto him and drives him away from the ball 'ruck style'

If it isn't a ruck, then CJ got it wrong as B3 clearly blocked/played W5 without W5 having the ball.
If it is a ruck , then CJ got it wrong as Tackler didn't get to feet and have hands on ball before ruck formed or retreat behind offside line before then advancing to collect the ball.

Either way CJ got this one wrong IMO.

Great post though.

 

[RobLev]

...

This does differ entirely to the afrikaans translation which states "close" or "nearby". My guess is the translater of the Dutch version had a better understanding of English than their Afrikaans counterpart :ireland:

To be fair, my experience of the Dutch is that they often have a better understanding of English than their English counterparts

 

[RobLev]

Are you sure?

Une Mêlée spontanée (ou Ruck) est une phase de jeu dans laquelle un ou plusieurs joueurs de chaque équipe sur leurs pieds, physiquement au contact, entourent le ballon au sol. Elle met fin à la situation de jeu courant.

’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op
hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak met mekaar naby die bal op die grond is.
Algemene spel is beëindig.

I'm certain. The Laws are written in English; they are translated into other languages. Any inconsistency can only be resolved by looking at the English. And, as irishref points out, the Afrikaans version isn't even consistent with the Dutch (which matches the English).

 

[talbazar]

Ok, so indeed English is not my mother tongue...

Let's have a bit of :deadhorse: anyway...

So, that's what my dictionary says:

[ intrans. ] ( close around/over) come into contact with (something) so as to encircle and hold it : my fist closed around the weapon.

I can understand that from the definition, there are actually two different expression:
To close around
To close over

Let's then be pedantic about English language and highlight the fact that the Natural English Speakers who wrote the law chose to use "To Close around" and not "To Close over"

Furthermore in my pedantic reading of the above definition, I would highlight that the word is clearly wrongly chosen for the law as "to close around" seems to have an idea of "holding" and that no players can "hold" the ball in a ruck.


Now that's I'm done playing around with the beauty of the Tongue of Shakespeare which I shall never get fully of course, my view on the original post remains:
- Off-sde at full speed
- Off-side at slow speed

And yes, that's probably ones of the numerous reasons that was CJ refereeing that game and not myself :biggrin:

Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[RobLev]

...Furthermore in my pedantic reading of the above definition, I would highlight that the word is clearly wrongly chosen for the law as "to close around" seems to have an idea of "holding" and that no players can "hold" the ball in a ruck...

But they must "hold" (bind onto) one another...:biggrin:

 

[Dixie]

Furthermore in my pedantic reading of the above definition, I would highlight that the word is clearly wrongly chosen for the law as "to close around" seems to have an idea of "holding" and that no players can "hold" the ball in a ruck.

This is not easy, as the verb "to close" is almost obsolete adn very rarely used these days so younger people and speakers of English as a foreign language have little experience of how it was once used. In this case, it is the two players who close - i.e. who come into contact with each other. The "around the ball" is a geographic location indicating where they come into contact. there is no suggestion that either player should actually touch the ball. if you look at the diagram in the LoTG, the two players have closed (i.e. made contact with one another), but neither is touching the ball. They ahve closed around (and also over) it.

But they must "hold" (bind onto) one another...:biggrin:

Neither a hold nor a bind are required, though one or both will usually be present. The law only requires contact - a chest bump will do.

 

[RobLev]

...Neither a hold nor a bind are required, though one or both will usually be present. The law only requires contact - a chest bump will do.

Contact to start the ruck - binding to be allowed to remain in it...

 

[Dixie]

Contact to start the ruck - binding to be allowed to remain in it...

No - sorry. Have another look at 16.2 and 16.3. A bind is only required from a joiner - not a former. It is open to debate whether a legal joiner is then permitted to relax his bind once the action of joining is complete.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Are you sure?

’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op
hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak met mekaar naby die bal op die grond is.
Algemene spel is beëindig.

After an extensive discussion with a couple of fluent Afrikaans speakers on another forum, we have come to the conclusion that the Afrikaans translation is, wait for it, ambiguous!!

epper:


There appears to be no equivalent to the idiom "close around", and they simply would use the word "surround" instead, so "we tried to close around the enemy camp" , they would simply say "we tried to surround the enemy camp"

To make it closer to to the English meaning, the Afrikaans translation should read, it should read.

[LAWS]’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op
hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak is met mekaar rondom die bal wat op die grond is
Algemene spel is beëindig.[/LAWS]