sub touching ball to deny a quick throw

[crossref]

So now we have the whole range of views from it doesn't matter through to red card!

 

[Paule23]

So now we have the whole range of views from it doesn't matter through to red card!

Just reinforces a lot of what we do is about judgement based on what we see (oh, and those pesky laws!)

 

[L'irlandais]

The truth of the matter is the law 19.2 didn't anticipate such gamesmanship ; you have to take a view. For me red carding a sub seems harsh, It's not liked he punched somebody. how about 10.4

[laws]10.4. Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play, commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart. If that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark for the penalty kick is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.

If play would restart at a 5-metre scrum, the mark for the penalty kick is at that place of the scrum.

If play would restart with a drop-out, the non-offending team may choose to take the penalty kick anywhere on the 22-metre line.

If a penalty kick is awarded but the offending team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee cautions or orders off the guilty player and advances the mark for the penalty kick 10 metres. This covers both the original offence and the misconduct.

If a penalty kick is awarded to a team but a player of that team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee will caution or send-off the guilty player, declare the kick disallowed, and award a penalty kick to the opposing team.
If an offence is committed outside the playing area while the ball is still in play, and if that offence is not covered by any other part of this Law, the penalty kick is awarded on the 15-metre line, in line with where the offence happened.[/laws]

 

[crossref]

10.4n covers actions by players - I don't think you can give a PK for an action by a sub (or coach/physio/waterboy)

I thnk the game must just restart with a lineout

The question is whether to discipline the sub, and there you only really have three options
1 - do nothing it's quite OK for a sub to touch the ball to prevent a QTI
2 - a stern word
3 - a red card

 

[Phil E]

Hypothetical thought.

If the sub hasn't been on the pitch yet...................

Show him a yellow card and tell the coach, the minute he steps onto the pitch he will go in the bin for 10 minutes.

Coach will never put him on, the sub doesn't get to play, and he might think twice about it next time :biggrin:

 

[crossref]

thinking outside the protocols?

I don't think you could get away with that, though, no backing in Law.

 

[Rushforth]

Two weeks earlier:

But how to handle a YC sub. The only effective approach woud be he coludn't be subbed on for ten minutes, cos outside last-man-standing he would never ever be called to "come one" and start his 10 minutes in the bin!(tough luck I hear ;-)

 

[Phil E]

thinking outside the protocols?

I don't think you could get away with that, though, no backing in Law.

That's why it was a

Hypothetical thought.

Two weeks earlier:

I always was a slow developer :redface:

 

[L'irlandais]

10.4n covers actions by players - I don't think you can give a PK for an action by a sub (or coach/physio...

the LotG mentions cards only in relation to players. Same difference. If your not going to penalize the sub's unsportlike action, then you can hardly card him either.
I guess the suggestion to have a word is best in the context of OP.

 

[crossref]

the LotG mentions cards only in relation to players. Same difference. If your not going to penalize the sub's unsportlike action, then you can hardly card him either..

hmm - I thought the Laws explicitly gave the referee the power to order coaches / physios / subs / ball boys and the like out of the playing enclosure.

but I have to say I can't find it in the Laws..

 

[crossref]

Here's the report on the Will Skinner incident. Note that he had come off the pitch, injured, and had no further part to play in the game anyway. The card had no impact on the game, but had the effect of triggering a disciplinary

this incident raised two very novel points, both of which we disucssed at the time

1 - is it an offence, and is it a RC offence for a sub to touch the ball to deny a QTI (Ans - Yes, but caveat that a warning had previsouly been issued)

2 - when a player is off the pitch for a YC and time has expired, is he entitled to come on when the ball is in touch? ie removing the possibiity of a QTI, or can the oppo take the QTI anyway leavin him on the touchline (Ans - it's referee discretion)


http://www.epcrugby.com/images/content/ERC_Hearing_Decision_Will_Skinner_Harlequins.pdf

 

[chbg]

hmm - I thought the Laws explicitly gave the referee the power to order coaches / physios / subs / ball boys and the like out of the playing enclosure.

but I have to say I can't find it in the Laws..

No - only the Playing Area (6.A.5). The other place to look would be RFU Regulations, but nothing obvious there.

 

[L'irlandais]

Well, like ddjamo suggested a penalty seems fair, if a QT was on.
That's why I thought this Law has it nailed, Zombie ball and all ;

:
[laws]10.4. Misconduct while the ball is out of play...

If an offence is committed outside the playing area while the ball is still in play, and if that offence is not covered by any other part of this Law, the penalty kick is awarded on the 15-metre line, in line with where the offence happened.[/laws]

World Rugby may back up the likes of Alain Rolland, not sure who would back up at decision at Grassroots to RC a sub.

 

[chbg]

However 10.4 starts "a player must not". Therefore it does not, certainly, apply to a coach etc. Can it apply to a Substitute?

Law 3 Definitions: [LAWS]A Team consists of fifteen players who start the match, plus any additional replacements and/or substitutions.[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

player means one of the fifteen, I think

but in terms of denying quick throws, if it's wrong for a sub it must be wrong for a coach or physio, and vice versa.

 

[crossref]

World Rugby may back up the likes of Alain Rolland, not sure who would back up at decision at Grassroots to RC a sub.

It was European Rugby who backed him up. I am not so confident WR would.
Grassroots - well, you'd have a good precedent to back you up.
BUT if I did it, I'd want to be able to say I'd already issued a warning, as Rolland did. Let's not depart from the precedent.

 

[Phil E]

World Rugby may back up the likes of Alain Rolland, not sure who would back up at decision at Grassroots to RC a sub.

At the moment World Rugby's backing up of its referees is a little suspect.

More likely to throw them under a bus and hang them out to dry.