Super Rugby final - red card

Camquin

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It is a red according the the definition - cf Finn Russell
The law is still an ass.

Apparently I can pick up a players legs and lift them with no penalty (see first crusaders try) but if someone jumps into my face I get a red card.
 

winchesterref


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No doubt, 100% red card. What's it going to take for players to get it?

- - - Updated - - -

It is a red according the the definition - cf Finn Russell
The law is still an ass.

Apparently I can pick up a players legs and lift them with no penalty (see first crusaders try) but if someone jumps into my face I get a red card.

Not a single dangerous thing about that first dump tackle.
 

JohnP

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Other than the legs and hips were lifted above horizontal ( fractionally) and player landed on top of shoulders / neck. No comment on commentary at all did surprise me.
 

pedr

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Many of the angry comments on Twitter seemed to say that as he didn't have time to react once the catcher jumped, the law is unfair. As I understand it, if he'd jumped to attempt to catch the ball - from a position where that was a genuine possibility - that would have been fine. But it looks as if his aim was to be in a position to tackle the catcher as soon as he got the ball/landed.

Which has me thinking, and comparing it to the British and Irish Lions penalty at the end of the second test. Rightly or wrongly, is the position the laws create this: if a player anticipates an opponent receiving the ball, and begins a tackle, runs a particular line at a particular speed, etc, the player is responsible for anything that goes wrong if the situation changes between him beginning that action and contact with the player. In both the situations I'm thinking of, the change is that the other player jumps - but there could be other things, too.

That differentiates this from the allowance for a "late" tackle where the action of the player begins as something undoubtedly within the rules: tackling a player with the ball. Here the action begins as something outside the rules - tackling a player without the ball, anticipating that by the time contact is made, the player will have the ball.

So players should learn to aim to get into position to catch balls they're chasing or, if that isn't possible, to arrive further away from
 

Treadmore

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I can understand the red but this is one where I feel sorry for the guy on the ground (I didn't feel sorry for Finn Russell, fwiw). Maybe this is because my first view of it (a replay during the game) was a side-on clip showing that the jumper first contacted the ball around the groin - I thought he'd mis-timed his jump - before he smashed into the face of Smith. Smith's seemed to be in a good place to compete for the ball. Except there was a (reckless?) jumper.

The fuller view of it shows Smith's chase after the kick ahead, with him looking ahead a couple or more times to check it is clear, whilst he also tracks the ball. He seems surprised by the jump and tries to stop. So it didn't seem a deliberate act, which leaves "reckless" for it to be red, according to the guidelines.

Maybe it was reckless of Smith, but I thought the jumper was more reckless with his own safety in this case - he seemed intent on being high in the air rather than focusing on the catch, which he missed.
 

Ian_Cook


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I can't see any realistic way to resolve the issue of players being taken out when jumping for the ball, short of some drastic changes to the Law. Some of these might involve completely removing the competition in the air for the ball, e.g.


► Outlaw jumping to catch a ball in open play
Not my first choice, because it would remove a spectacular element of the game.


► A player cannot jump to catch the ball if it was last played by a team-mate.
This would mean kick chasers would not be allowed jump for the ball. It would also mean that a player would not be allowed to jump to catch a pass from a team-mate... this would at least solve the Faumuina-Sinkler scenario.


If a Law has to be changed, I would prefer the second one. I think it would change the type of kicking teams would do. We'd see more kicking to land/space and less box kicking, and I can't say I would object to that. It would also remove the scope for indecision from the kick chaser. No longer would he have to decide what to do... he simply times his run to tackle the catcher as soon as possible after the catcher's feet touch the ground.... he just has to make sure he doesn't get him early. IMO, the second one is worth trialing.
 

Ian_Cook


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I can understand the red but this is one where I feel sorry for the guy on the ground (I didn't feel sorry for Finn Russell, fwiw). Maybe this is because my first view of it (a replay during the game) was a side-on clip showing that the jumper first contacted the ball around the groin - I thought he'd mis-timed his jump - before he smashed into the face of Smith. Smith's seemed to be in a good place to compete for the ball. Except there was a (reckless?) jumper.

The fuller view of it shows Smith's chase after the kick ahead, with him looking ahead a couple or more times to check it is clear, whilst he also tracks the ball. He seems surprised by the jump and tries to stop. So it didn't seem a deliberate act, which leaves "reckless" for it to be red, according to the guidelines.

Maybe it was reckless of Smith, but I thought the jumper was more reckless with his own safety in this case - he seemed intent on being high in the air rather than focusing on the catch, which he missed.

It looked like Dan Biggar v Stuart Hogg all over again... Biggar jumped recklessly with no consideration for who was in the landing zone. The hapless Stuart Hogg was clattered into, and Hogg gets the RC

In this case of Havili v Smith, while I know the Law says RC because safety, protecting the man in he air (yada yada yada), it goes completely against my sense of justice ad fair play.
 
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TigerCraig


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The problem with this one was that the catcher jumped forwards as well as upwards. That made the incident and the outcome worse. Under the current interpretation the right call, but I'd rather see the penalty go the other way - against the guy who causes the potential danger.

Similarly I had one in an under 18 game today where a payer jumped just as he was about to be tackled. I penalised him for dangerous play and noone complained
 

Christy


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For me ,
I would of stopped play on grounds potential injury .
Called in both captains ( once said potential injured now ok ) .
Also called in both players involved .

Would of said something like .
From what i saw , the deffender has jumped for ball & has jumped into path of red attacking player.
The attacking team red player may not of been in a realistic position to now catch ball , due to space deffender has taken in air & momento of jump , however there was no way red player could of pulled out of path of deffending player in air .
We will restart scrum red ball , lost forward by black ..
I would also remind both captains to tell their players there is a duty on all players may you be attacking or deffending that safety must be their nr 1 priority against others and also against them selves ..
 

Christy


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The problem with this one was

Similarly I had one in an under 18 game today where a payer jumped just as he was about to be tackled. I penalised him for dangerous play and noone complained


Hi tiger , regarding your penalty against player jumping whilst about to be tackled .
Totally agree .
Its going to be tried on im sure by a lot of clubs .
 

ChrisR

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Here is a shorter but more inclusive clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK1xLL0rg6g

I think there is one approach that could work. Introduce a "fair catch" as in American football. The receiving player has to signal (an arm wave above the head) that he's catching the ball. There must be no contact and the receiving team gets the free kick.

Yes, it would take away the thrill of the competition in the air but only if a 'fair catch' was called. It would also eliminate aimless kicking.

In the past when a mark was called couldn't the opponents stand and defend from the mark and force the kicker to retreat? Let's go back to that for a fair catch.
 

Pegleg

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For me ,
I would of stopped play on grounds potential injury .
Called in both captains ( once said potential injured now ok ) .
Also called in both players involved .

Would of said something like .
From what i saw , the deffender has jumped for ball & has jumped into path of red attacking player.
The attacking team red player may not of been in a realistic position to now catch ball , due to space deffender has taken in air & momento of jump , however there was no way red player could of pulled out of path of deffending player in air .
We will restart scrum red ball , lost forward by black ..
I would also remind both captains to tell their players there is a duty on all players may you be attacking or deffending that safety must be their nr 1 priority against others and also against them selves ..
So you would have ignored the law. Ok. Surely the referee had to give the PK even if he wanted to bottle the card.

The problem is, according to the law that was a nailed on Red Card. However, the law is an ass (once again!)

So how do we manage it? If you are in the sticks and with no advisor you could get away with Christy's solution. But you only need one guy filming the game and you are in trouble.

If you have an advisor at your game how will you justify ignoring the law and guidelines issued? Guidlines that are, for WR, pretty clear!

If you are on TV with all the scrutiny that goes with it, you have very little choice but to apply the law.
 

Treadmore

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It looked like Dan Biggar v Stuart Hogg all over again... Biggar jumped recklessly with no consideration for who was in the landing zone.
(you mean Russell) when Biggar jumped no one was in his landing zone - at least, so it seemed to me. Whereas Havili had Smith oncoming directly before he jumped and when he did jump he was probably going to land on him even if Smith could have stopped still immediately.

In this case of Havili v Smith, while I know the Law says RC because safety, protecting the man in he air (yada yada yada), it goes completely against my sense of justice ad fair play.
The Application Guidelines for this scenario refer to "deliberate" or "reckless" for the RC criteria, which I think is OK but just didn't apply in this case. I'm not thinking the Law is at fault here.
I think Christy's approach [post #10]would have been a correct application of the Law. It will be interesting to see what the Disciplinary Panel make of it.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Here is a shorter but more inclusive clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK1xLL0rg6g

I think there is one approach that could work. Introduce a "fair catch" as in American football. The receiving player has to signal (an arm wave above the head) that he's catching the ball. There must be no contact and the receiving team gets the free kick.

Yes, it would take away the thrill of the competition in the air but only if a 'fair catch' was called. It would also eliminate aimless kicking.

In the past when a mark was called couldn't the opponents stand and defend from the mark and force the kicker to retreat? Let's go back to that for a fair catch.

Arm waving above head, I was taught to watch kicking team for offside advances whilst the ball was in the air. A ref could easily miss the arm wave.

How about both feet on the ground to call a mark and anywhere on the field of play? and both teams can call mark?
 

SimonSmith


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Here is a shorter but more inclusive clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK1xLL0rg6g

I think there is one approach that could work. Introduce a "fair catch" as in American football. The receiving player has to signal (an arm wave above the head) that he's catching the ball. There must be no contact and the receiving team gets the free kick.

Yes, it would take away the thrill of the competition in the air but only if a 'fair catch' was called. It would also eliminate aimless kicking.

In the past when a mark was called couldn't the opponents stand and defend from the mark and force the kicker to retreat? Let's go back to that for a fair catch.

Except that wouldn't have helped in this situation.
 

SimonSmith


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(you mean Russell) when Biggar jumped no one was in his landing zone - at least, so it seemed to me. Whereas Havili had Smith oncoming directly before he jumped and when he did jump he was probably going to land on him even if Smith could have stopped still immediately.

The Application Guidelines for this scenario refer to "deliberate" or "reckless" for the RC criteria, which I think is OK but just didn't apply in this case. I'm not thinking the Law is at fault here.
I think Christy's approach [post #10]would have been a correct application of the Law. It will be interesting to see what the Disciplinary Panel make of it.

No, he means Hogg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImYlu7THs9o
 

crossref


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I can't see any realistic way to resolve the issue of players being taken out when jumping for the ball, short of some drastic changes to the Law. Some of these might involve completely removing the competition in the air for the ball, e.g.


► Outlaw jumping to catch a ball in open play
Not my first choice, because it would remove a spectacular element of the game.


► A player cannot jump to catch the ball if it was last played by a team-mate.
This would mean kick chasers would not be allowed jump for the ball. It would also mean that a player would not be allowed to jump to catch a pass from a team-mate... this would at least solve the Faumuina-Sinkler scenario.


If a Law has to be changed, I would prefer the second one. I think it would change the type of kicking teams would do. We'd see more kicking to land/space and less box kicking, and I can't say I would object to that. It would also remove the scope for indecision from the kick chaser. No longer would he have to decide what to do... he simply times his run to tackle the catcher as soon as possible after the catcher's feet touch the ground.... he just has to make sure he doesn't get him early. IMO, the second one is worth trialing.

that's an interesting idea (the second one). +1 for liking to see a trial of that.
 
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