Tackled player not releasing the ball - What do you think?

[talbazar]

Dear All,

I was lucky enough to ref a pretty good 7's tournament last weekend and even luckier to get a DVD for all my games.

I've extracted the 4 decisions below as I would like your views on them.
All are for the same infringement (tackled player not releasing the ball) and I'd love to hear your views on each based on:
- Good call
- Marginal but ok to whistle
- Marginal shouldn't have blown
- Wrong call

Indeed you may add as much comment as you wish.
Keep in mind this is 7's though.

Thanks a lot,
Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[Drift]

Blow the PK quicker. 3rd and 4th ones you could've let go though.

 

[aussie battler]

1 & 2 definately correct call.

3 & 4 form the video its hard to see if the tackler has a grasp on the tackled player. If they have even a finger tip on them it is a tackle and you were right there in perfect postion so i assume thats what you saw so both the correct decision.

All occasions though the whistle came very late.

 

[menace]

For mine...1, 2 and 4 (he clearly went down on knees) are ok. 3 is marginal at best and IMO should have been let go.

PK 1 - the whistle was very late so you obviously paused in your head and then realised the picture didn't look right. When you first gave the PK I thought you'd missed the tackled player playing on and the PK was for white support player going off feet. (Slow down your 2ndry signal...you looked like you were rushed and pulling on a train whistle or double-fist-pumping! :biggrin

The other then ideally you'd want to blow the PK before they 'score' but sometimes that not possible so I didn't have too much a problem with that second delay before you blew just to see what happened (IMO, some tackled players realise their dilemma and fix it before you need to whistle). I Can't hear your comms, so in any of those were you able to verbalise 'tackled' so the BC could play the ball? Though the trend seemed to be that both had a total disregard for what is a 'tackle' in rugby and their options/requirements!

 

[damo]

Without reading any other responses.

1 and 2 clearly correct. 3 clearly incorrect. 4 is probably correct but hard to say with the grainy footage. The tackler in 4 should be coached not to release quite so quickly.

I think the ref is taking too long to make the decision which may confuse everyone. With the first one, I was a bit confused at first which tackle you were penalising.

 

[leaguerefaus]

Looks like the video was taken on a phone camera!

 

[FlipFlop]

1 & 2 - good calls.
3 - did the "tackler" actually have a hold of the ball carrier on the ground. Difficult to tell in footage (angle, grainy). If so - good call. But I suspect from the movement he didn't, so wrong call.
4 - tackled player landed on top of tackler. Was held, but marginal call. More interesting is the player still in the ruck, holding the defender into the ruck, preventing him from making/joining the tackle.

Agree with others - if making these type of calls, there is no chance of advantage, especially at 7s - you need to blow them as soon as the tackled player gets to his feet. Way too slow. Given how many were there - do you call "Tackle" or similar prevention?

 

[TheBFG]

I'd go with 1&2 are fine, 3 I'd have let go, 4 is not easy to see but depending if you'd called Tackler release in which case I think that was OK too

 

[andyscott]

1 PK
2 PK ok but harsh
3 Play on
4 play on.

 

[Dixie]

On first viewing, I felt all were correct. You were within 2.5m and excellently placed for each. So reading the comments preceding mine, and seeing that all without exception had reservations about the 3rd, I revisited it. Obviously, the tackler's initial high grasp has slipped, and what I took at first viewing to be a clear secondary grasp of the ball carrier's ankle now seems less clear - but I could not say with certainty from the footage that it didn't happen.

Overall, if I were assessing (in my unqualified capacity), I don't think I'd have raised any of these with you as clearly incorrect, or as critical incidents where the score was denied.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

BWTFDIK, Talbazar,

I think you were correct on all calls. #4 player appears to be on top of tackler, so I think he is brought to ground.

If I were coach I wouldn't complain. In each case the players could have released, quickly gotten to their feet, and then picked up ball. This would leave no doubt in your decesion.

 

[talbazar]

Thank you all for your comments and feedbacks.

A few comments from my side:
1. Whistle too slow: definitely agree. I tend to "let it breath" a bit more when ref'ing 7's but here it's clearly far too slow.

2. Secondary signals: again, fully agreed. I've been told the same after this game and Menace is right, I do look silly.

3. PK 4 decision: what really made it for me (and can't really be seen on the video) is that the BC had to extract himself from the tackler's grasp to get back up. It does look a bit more marginal on the video though...

4. PK 3 decision: I'm actually surprised by so many people thinking its marginal (or even a wrong call)... I can get why the tackle doesn't look fully completed. But the BC is crawling to in-goal... That just doesn't look right... Or am I missing something?

Cheers,
Pierre.

PS: apologies for the video quality: the DVD isn't great and I edited it with a too low resolution...

 

[FlipFlop]

PK3 - we can't see if the tackle is completed. Is the ball carrier held while on the ground? So it is marginal. We can't tell if held or not. If he is held, then very different to not held.

 

[TheBFG]

just looks as though the BC "breaks" the tackle and isn't held on the ground :shrug:

 

[talbazar]

PK3 - we can't see if the tackle is completed. Is the ball carrier held while on the ground? So it is marginal. We can't tell if held or not. If he is held, then very different to not held.

just looks as though the BC "breaks" the tackle and isn't held on the ground :shrug:

That makes sense...
But what about
[LAWS]14.1 Players on the ground
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
Get up with the ball
Pass the ball
Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

As I said, I agree the tackle itself may look as not-competed-by-the-tackler / broken-by-the-BC. But again, the BC crawl to the try line, he doesn't "get up with the ball"

Anyway, it just looked wrong... But that doesn't mean I was right :biggrin:
Just trying to get the proper experience out of it: I'm always trying not to do the same mistake twice...

Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[Ian_Cook]

That makes sense...
But what about
[LAWS]14.1 Players on the ground
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
Get up with the ball
Pass the ball
Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

As I said, I agree the tackle itself may look as not-competed-by-the-tackler / broken-by-the-BC. But again, the BC crawl to the try line, he doesn't "get up with the ball"

Anyway, it just looked wrong... But that doesn't mean I was right :biggrin:
Just trying to get the proper experience out of it: I'm always trying not to do the same mistake twice...

Cheers,
Pierre.

In a Hurricanes match (I cant remember who against) I saw Conrad Smith tackled and not held, He crawled a couple of metres forward while making a production of turning himself around to place the ball.. Vinny Munro pinged him.

Conrad: "But I wasn't held!"

Vinny: "Rugby 101. Play the game on your feet!"

 

[Browner]

Bump .............
Slightly different , senario ....but worth considering the different argument merits

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWMyUocMLU

Player grasped/held - yes
Then brought to ground by Tackler - yes
T Released - yes?
TP released ball - no !

So, a correct decision then (?) , but how many of us without a TMO wouldve played on ?

 

[Drift]

Bump .............
Slightly different , senario ....but worth considering the different argument merits

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWMyUocMLU

Player grasped/held - yes
Then brought to ground by Tackler - yes
T Released - yes?
TP released ball - no !

So, a correct decision then (?) , but how many of us without a TMO wouldve played on ?

In real time I am playing on for that.

 

[Browner]

http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2830842/

Everyone focussed on the 'ruck was formed' call timing, but I'm giving PK to blue for tackled player not making the ball available....

Thoughts?