The crusade continues

Ian_Cook


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I consider that to be great news - keep the name, change the imagery.

"With no right decision to make in the aftermath of the Christchurch terrorist attacks the club sensibly opted to listen to its lifeblood!"

A commonsense outcome, thought I expect not one that will satisfy the politically correct. I suggest its you who doesn't get it crossref.
 

L'irlandais

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What about Saracens? Must they change their name and logo too?
”The club's name is said to come from the "endurance, enthusiasm and perceived invincibility of Saladin's desert warriors of the 12th century".

Or the Exeter Chiefs? God knows the Native Americans have been discriminated against. Perhaps the English would like to put their house in order, before chucking stones at other folk’s glasshouses.

Still clutching on to the last vestiges of the British empire.
[LAWS]The ICJ advisory opinion in February stated the decolonisation of Mauritius was not lawfully completed because the islands were split off from the territory three years before independence, and declared “the UK is under an obligation to bring to an end its administration of the Chagos archipelago as rapidly as possible”.[/LAWS] The rest of us have moved on. Let us know how ye get on with writing a National anthem for England. Scotland and Northern Ireland wish to remain in Europe, when you lot Brexit. I strongly suspect the treatment of Irish independence was also unlawful, as was the invasion of Rockall. Godness, your grandchildren aren’t half going to have problems sorting out the mess you left ‘em. Don’t worry about the New Zealanders’ club names, you have far more pressing issues to resolve.
 
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crossref


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Correct me if I am wrong, but neither the Saracens nor the native Americans existed with the sole purpose of instigating religious wars and persecution ?
If they were, then I would agree that the name is equally as undesirable for a rugby club as "crusaders"
 

Ian_Cook


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You continue to throw out fishing lines when it is anything to do with NZ or the ABs

How about presenting your argument about what the Crusaders don't get!

Don't be holding your breath now!
 

L'irlandais

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Correct me if I am wrong, but neither the Saracens nor the native Americans existed with the sole purpose of instigating religious wars and persecution ?
If they were, then I would agree that the name is equally as undesirable for a rugby club as "crusaders"
Saladin’s Saracen army were engaged in a Holy war against the Crusaders. So it is the flip side of the same coin.
If the name Crusaders is unacceptable, then Saracens is equally unacceptabe. They imposed their Sunni Muslim (own particular flavour of that ) religion on the region. Christians had been in the Levant long before Islam.
Saladin’s every act was inspired by an intense and unwavering devotion to the idea of jihad, or holy war. It was an essential part of his policy to encourage the growth and spread of Muslim religious institutions. He courted their scholars and preachers, founded colleges and mosques for their use, and commissioned them to write edifying works, especially on the jihad itself.
Source: Britannica.

As for the Native Americans, their culture was destroyed by “Europeans” instigating a war against these animalistic folk and persecute them to this day. It was a religious war with Christianity being imposed on all of North America. So a club using their War headdress without giving a fig for the surviving members of that culture, is equally repulsive. Just because such symbols are commonplace across the USA doesn’t make them acceptable. Native American populations are persecuted, even more than African Americans. Racism, is alive and well in the Western World. The headdress, not being a symbol of oppression, but rather a sign that the fans wearing it are usurping that culture for themselves, without standing up for the rights of Native Americans. If a club called itselt the Sikhs and started wearing fake Turbans to games, how would that sit with Punjabis in the UK? Remberance Day forgetfulness
 
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crossref


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You continue to throw out fishing lines when it is anything to do with NZ or the ABs

How about presenting your argument about what the Crusaders don't get!

I think we've done that to death .. the crusaders were formed to conduct religious wars of aggression. For centuries this was viewed as a good thing ... but it wasn't really. In our modern world the crusades are a matter a of regret, not a matter for celebration / commemoration
 

crossref


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Yes, that meaning is drawn from the premise that the original crusades were themselves morally right. A false premise
 

L'irlandais

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FAir point. However the past is a foreign land, they do things differently there. Modern military interventions are not so different. It is wrong to assume that the Kurdish Saladin was protecting his homeland against Europeans. He was out to squash all opposition and imposed his religion on everyone. He’d have included Western Europe in that if left to his own devices. So if you want to campaign for a name change, then write to Sarries. Sort out stuff on your own doorstep. I get the feeling Muslims enjoy religious freedom in NZ.

For a change of meaning of any given word, you’ll need to contact the Oxford English Dictionary. Be aware any campaign with them will take the best part of 10 years of your life.
 
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crossref


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The OED record how words are used, they don't dictate how they are used

No one nowadays would go on a crusade, because of the negative connotations of the word
 

Decorily

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Jeez.....there appears to be one or two on this site who think they are on a crusade!
 

SimonSmith


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The OED record how words are used, they don't dictate how they are used

No one nowadays would go on a crusade, because of the negative connotations of the word

A quick search of Google points out just how ridiculous your last sentence is.
 

Dixpat

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The OED record how words are used, they don't dictate how they are used

No one nowadays would go on a crusade, because of the negative connotations of the word

You must lead a sheltered life - haven't you heard of Greta Thunberg!
 

Rich_NL

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Saracen was a general term for Arab, in Europe. A closer translation of "crusader" in both meaning and use would be "jihadist".
 

Marc Wakeham


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If you want t ogo through the OED (and others in other countries) to check the etymology of all the words contained therein you wil have a mssive job removing all the ones with a dubious past.

Words, and their usage, evolve with the passing of time. Most people don't give the origin of a word a second thought (or even a first one).

Move on, the muslims in Crusaderville don't seem to bothered: "While the city’s Islamic community preferred not to be involved in the discussions associated with branding review, they made no request for the name to be changed. Members of that community are fans and support the team at games".

Outsiders getting all offended without asking if the "affected" folk are even bothered!
 
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L'irlandais

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The OED record how words are used, they don't dictate how they are used

No one nowadays would go on a crusade, because of the negative connotations of the word
When I arrived in the UK the RiBA had finished a ten year campaign to get the OED to change the entry for Architect to include the mention “member of the RiBA”
Within months of their victory, Margaret Thatcher had removed the word Architect from Building contracts and replaced it with the term Contract manager. It one foul swoop of the pen she condemned tens of thousands of qualified architects to unemployment and had ensured a rich retirement for herself; as her buddies could blight Britain with monstrosities of shopping centers without any Architects to be in a position to veto such outrageous projects.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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When I arrived in the UK the RiBA had finished a ten year campaign to get the OED to change the entry for Architect to include the mention “member of the RiBA”
Within months of their victory, Margaret Thatcher had removed the word Architect from Building contracts and replaced it with the term Contract manager. It one foul swoop of the pen she condemned tens of thousands of qualified architects to unemployment and had ensured a rich retirement for herself; as her buddies could blight Britain with monstrosities of shopping centers without any Architects to be in a position to veto such outrageous projects.

Much as I like MT as much as the next Goldthorpe resident I think shitty buildings pre-date her arrival in No. 10.

Just think what tens of thousands of unemployed architects did to the UK's Bow Tie industry?
 
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