The old "double movement" question

Cymro

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Got myself in a bit of a pickle the other day, green aproaching blue goal-line, blue make a tackle about 5M out and green slides to within 1-2M of the line. waits a sec and then tries to place the ball, clearly it wasn't immediate and all the blue players shout "double-movement" green lies there looking longingly up at me, all his teammates stop. Blue do nothing and look at me awaiting a decision. they don't try to play the ball etc etc.

What would you have given:) ?
 

Dickie E


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should be fairly straightforward:

if immediate - try
if not immediate - penalty Blue
 

PaulDG


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Got myself in a bit of a pickle the other day, green aproaching blue goal-line, blue make a tackle about 5M out and green slides to within 1-2M of the line. waits a sec and then tries to place the ball, clearly it wasn't immediate and all the blue players shout "double-movement" green lies there looking longingly up at me, all his teammates stop. Blue do nothing and look at me awaiting a decision. they don't try to play the ball etc etc.

What would you have given:) ?

From the description, I'd probably given the try.

We don't have "double movement" in our game - that's the other code. So what's the problem here?

The ball carrier has taken one of his 3 options - pass, release or place. He's chosen "place".

Are you going to penalise him for "holding on"? Was there an opposition player on his feet trying to play the ball?

(Now, if he's had to crawl along the ground or somesuch in order to reach the line, that's a different matter. He's not got to his feet before playing the ball which I believe we all now think should be a penalty..)
 

Cymro

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PaulDG I know we don't have a double-movement in "our" game:clap:. However I think we all know what one is when its called or we see it, hence my use of the term (and in quotes). As I said, he didn't place the ball immediately.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Got myself in a bit of a pickle the other day, green aproaching blue goal-line, blue make a tackle about 5M out and green slides to within 1-2M of the line. waits a sec and then tries to place the ball, clearly it wasn't immediate and all the blue players shout "double-movement" green lies there looking longingly up at me, all his teammates stop. Blue do nothing and look at me awaiting a decision. they don't try to play the ball etc etc.

What would you have given:) ?

These are ones where you have to be there to determine the immediacy of the immediately (eh?). If you would give him that long to place the ball after/in the tackle anywhere else in the field then you should award the try. Like you say it wasn't immediate so you should penalise?????

No help at all!!! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

People who shout double movement watch too much RL and/or are usually members of the "let him get up" club and therefore deserve to have tries scored against them. :eek: :eek:

I find a curry (jafreezi and above) and a few pints produces at least a double movment.
 

Dickie E


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I find the phrase "double movement" to be a quite descriptive (de facto?) account of events. When I hear the phrase I have a clear picture of what happened.

Those that object to the phrase are consigned to the "they're not rules, they're laws" brigade.
 

OB..


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PaulDG I know we don't have a double-movement in "our" game:clap:. However I think we all know what one is when its called or we see it, hence my use of the term (and in quotes).
We as referees might know, but it is a widely misunderstood term and thus best avoided.

As I said, he didn't place the ball immediately.
The law requires "immediately", and you as referee have decided it wasn't complied with. Therefore no try. What he did was illegal, and the law prescribes a penalty to the opposition.
 

Dixie


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Cymro, what would you have done if, having slid, he'd placed the ball backwards? If you'd have played on, then I think you should have awarded the try in the situation you faced.
 

tim White


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Did he prevent anyone on their feet getting the ball? If all he did was reach out to score when all players were off their feet in the tackle area then I would have trouble NOT giving the try, even if this was not as quick as some might like. Who did the ball carrier DISADVANTAGE?
 

ex-lucy


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was the ball carrier held?
doesnt seem so ..
so play on.
if he was held ... depends on 'immediate' ... cant provide a more definitive answer....
immediate to me depends on defenders competing for the ball .... what he tries to do with the ball etc.
 

Dickie E


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although (as previously discussed) "without delay" sometimes (but not always) may allow for "opposition misdirection" so too "immediately" may mean anything from 1 nanosecond to several seconds.
 

Simon Griffiths


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I have a somewhat flexible interpretation of 'immediately' - all dependent upon the circumstances and what is going on around the pitch. However, in the act of scoring a try I do have a little thing in my head that thinks after a couple of seconds "okay, so there's no competition, but he can't make a decision and he's not played the ball in any way" ping, holding on.

I have a bit of a Blackadder moment when people can't make their mind up on the line: "Really, I wish he'd make up his mind -- either he dies, or he lives forever! It's his shilly-shallying that's so undignified."
 

Phil E


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So the general consensus is that a "double movement" (for want of a better description) is ok if its immediate (although the definition of immediate is down to the individual referee and the circumstances), but if he "shilly-shallies" the it's a penalty for either holding on, or playing the ball off your feet?

Does that sum it up?

I am keen to get it clear in my head because I have had a couple of these and have given them both ways dependant on "how it looked". Some were in goal (where the ball carrier initially ends up on his back) and were either a very quick turn to get the ball on the ground, or a varying number of erratic movements to get the ball down :confused:
 

SimonSmith


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I find the phrase "double movement" to be a quite descriptive (de facto?) account of events. When I hear the phrase I have a clear picture of what happened.

Those that object to the phrase are consigned to the "they're not rules, they're laws" brigade.

Those that believe that are capable only of lazy thinking.

We done trading insults now?;)

Even allowing for you trying to engender a reaction, I'm not sure you're right.

The law's frame of reference is time-related - "Immediately".
What often gets called as a "double movement" LOOKS like a separate movement post tackle - and is. That, in and of itself, is NOT illegal. How long it takes the player to exercise the option is the critical factor in determining the legitimacy of that action.
 

PaulDG


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So the general consensus is that a "double movement" (for want of a better description) is ok if its immediate (although the definition of immediate is down to the individual referee and the circumstances), but if he "shilly-shallies" the it's a penalty for either holding on, or playing the ball off your feet?

Does that sum it up?

As I understand it, in League, the match stops when the ball hits the ground while being held. At that point, the tacklers must release and the tackled player must stand up and do the tap back through the legs.

If the tackled player attempts to move the ball forward after it's hit the ground, that's "double movement" and is a penalty offence.

It's very different for us (which is why I feel the phrase is very unhelpful).

For us, the tackled player has the explicit right to place the ball anywhere, including forward and may stretch out to score a try.

So what's the justification for not giving the try in this case?

Has the tackled player crawled along the ground and is hence guilty of playing the ball off his feet? Perhaps.

Has he "held on"? Well there didn't seem to be any opposition players in the vicinity so, as has been said, we wouldn't usually blow anywhere else on the field for several seconds so why penalise just because he's close to the line?

I am keen to get it clear in my head because I have had a couple of these and have given them both ways dependant on "how it looked". Some were in goal (where the ball carrier initially ends up on his back) and were either a very quick turn to get the ball on the ground, or a varying number of erratic movements to get the ball down :confused:

Don't forget there's no such thing as a tackle in goal so the obligations to pass, place or release do not apply. In that situation, again, what's the justification for not allowing the player to wriggle around the get the ball down?
 

gillburt


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IMO each Ref brings their own "timing" value to the definition of "immediate" (taking into account the level of the match too) and so for me the key is that you apply your timing with Equality throughout the game - which I think is what one of the earlier posts was getting at too.
 

ddjamo


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I think it comes down to thinking in your own head, "give me a reason to not award this try". had a similar thing happen on saturday (rambling prop tackled/knocked down 7m out, not held, popped to his feet with the ball, rambled another 3m and dove)...awarded the try as the opposition were standing around watching and yelling instead of defending....
 

Phil E


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In that situation, again, what's the justification for not allowing the player to wriggle around the get the ball down?

Its not a case of "not allowing him to wriggle", its a case of how long do you allow him to wriggle.

Your not going to stand there for 2 minutes while he attempts to wriggle free of the defenders. How long can he wriggle before you declare "held up"?
 

Toby Warren


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I find the phrase "double movement" to be a quite descriptive (de facto?) account of events. When I hear the phrase I have a clear picture of what happened.

Those that object to the phrase are consigned to the "they're not rules, they're laws" brigade.
Here Here, I agree with this and put it in the same box as 'crossing' truck and trailer' not in the law book but everyone knows what they mean.
 

PaulDG


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Here Here, I agree with this and put it in the same box as 'crossing' truck and trailer' not in the law book but everyone knows what they mean.

What does it mean then?

What is "double movement"? When would you allow it? When would you penalise it?
 
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