The Rugby Club & Bryce Lawrence's Scrums

[The Fat]

I agree with that, but in this case I am concerned that pulling out that sort of statement sounds like a serious criticism of the referee, whereas in fact it contains no useful information. We do not know which 3 decisions were supposedly wrong, we do not know why they were wrong, and we do not know if that was typical of his game generally. They might all have been close judgement calls.

If they were close judgement calls, I wouldn't expect that POB and BL would have admitted the calls were incorrect. I too would like more specific info on what PKs they are talking about. Are you refering to the team management or Greg Martin's comments when you say, "pulling out that sort of statement sounds like a serious criticism of the referee" ?
I think that it could be seen that way coming from the commentators on the Rugby Club but I do believe that the motivation for Deans & Co to ask for clarification of some of the decisions BL made is to rectify any problems before the QF. They would be mad not to. Deans is no fool and he would have to be one of the most restrained coaches going around. I doubt that he would be up for criticising a referee prior to a RWC QF.

 

[OB..]

If they were close judgement calls, I wouldn't expect that POB and BL would have admitted the calls were incorrect. I too would like more specific info on what PKs they are talking about. Are you refering to the team management or Greg Martin's comments when you say, "pulling out that sort of statement sounds like a serious criticism of the referee" ?
I think that it could be seen that way coming from the commentators on the Rugby Club

The only information I have is that posted on here. It may well be the sort of over-simplification that journos seem to go for. If Greg Martin has been reported accurately then his comment comes across as a useless criticism of the referee.

I cannot draw any conclusions about why the questions were asked, since I have no idea what they were.

 

[Ian_Cook]

What is the ref asking from the ARs? Roland, for example, has specific requests from his ARS. Calling (binding) Penalties at scrum time in not in the remit. "Tell me and I'll come around and have a look". Rather than "Tell me it is a PK". Remember the ref sets the framework for how the To3 work.

Perhaps this is part of the problem. Individualism leads directly to inconsistency.

Since we have a defined protocol as to how the TMO is used, perhaps it might be better to have a protocol to define how the AR's are used.

 

[Account Deleted]

I understand that some refs don't always have confidence in the ARs. Especially in a RWC situation where both the Ref and the AR might be contenders for a later "big game". Another argument for specialist ARs?

 

[basilfawlty]

Scrum are 3 dimensional and what the AR sees may not have been the (sole) reason for the collapse in the referees opinion, and I would rather the AR assist by calling the referee around rather than cvall a OK straight out. The referee is charged with managing the game with the assistance of the AR's, not the other way around. At least Roland used his AR's with his instructions which is a positive. Some others appear as if they do not use the AR's at all.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Scrum are 3 dimensional and what the AR sees may not have been the (sole) reason for the collapse in the referees opinion, and I would rather the AR assist by calling the referee around rather than cvall a OK straight out. The referee is charged with managing the game with the assistance of the AR's, not the other way around. At least Roland used his AR's with his instructions which is a positive. Some others appear as if they do not use the AR's at all.

While you may not see the reason for a scrum collapsing, you should have no problem, as an AR, seeing whether or not the props are binding legally, they either are or they aren't.

 

[Bury_Dave]

So why isn't the Ruling Body seriously considering looser shirts for the props in order to remove one, constant, excuse (or perhaps fair reason?) for poor binding ?

Dave

 

[didds]

So why isn't the Ruling Body seriously considering looser shirts for the props in order to remove one, constant, excuse (or perhaps fair reason?) for poor binding ?

Dave

I think the problem there is .. define "loose"... we can bandy about what we mean by loose, and probably agree. But the requirement needs to be defined well enough so that a shirt is ALWAYS Ok, niot open to interpretation on a weekly basis, and consider the fcat that club owned shirts may have to "fit" differently shaped props from week to week.

didds

 

[basilfawlty]

While you may not see the reason for a scrum collapsing, you should have no problem, as an AR, seeing whether or not the props are binding legally, they either are or they aren't.

No issue with that Ian The AR should inform the referee of what he has seen, and he can do that by verbal advice through the communications gear or by flagging the offence as foul play. Whichever, the call is still with the referee to decide whether to reset, or award the PK, not the AR his job is to assist the referee in making the decision by telling him what he saw.

I also agree with your comment that most of it can be sorted prior to engagement with more attention to detail in the binding of the FR, and the alignment of the FR to each other. Would save a lot of bother.:smile:

 

[Davet]

Loose enough to bind onto

Easily checked, can the ref grab a handful of cloth where the opposing FR should be able to grab a handful.

 

[didds]

Loose enough to bind onto

Easily checked, can the ref grab a handful of cloth where the opposing FR should be able to grab a handful.

hmmmm... adult ref grabbing the shirt of the 15 year old prop...

hmmmm... very large prop plays one week, far slimmer prop the next... level 12 team has to have how many front row shirts available?...

I'm not syaing that dave's suggestiion isn;t the clearly obvious one... just outliningh that what is a reasonable law in theiory becaomes a major headache when you actually implement it.

Of course, the reality is that only at the very top levels is that actually an issue (certainly skin tight shirts by design and general non binding issues) ... but unless you start having a split law book to differentiate between the elite game and Old Twattbaggians 5th XV then everybody has top go through this process everyweek with the attendant issues I outline (and undoutedly more).

didds

 

[bignij]

Get the bind right, put it in straight, hold the push. Standard fare for pre match brief. We might even have a decent contest at scrum time!
Jumpers for goalposts etc.:deadhorse::chin:

 

[Davet]

Didds, OK maybe just need the ref to witness (if there is doubt) that a bind can be taken on the shirt, solves issues with kids and women.

Difficulty may arise if the material available to bind on to disappears when the hooker grabs his bit, but you could even have the test be with the FR set, which would account for that as well.

Clubs need to have shirts big enough for the different sizes anyway, so long as it's big enough for the biggest prop then that is just the same issue as they currently have.

 

[didds]

well, yes other than a 20 stone prop's shirt worn by a 12 stone prop is gonna be a sail/unwearable.

And as we see from this very forum some refs will not counternanace even starting a game without a properly numbered set of shirts... so how many extra shirts with 1 and 3 and 16 (and 17?) does a team have to carry? Multiplied by the number of teams in a club? Its not a biggy, I know that - but its an example of how what appears to be "a simple solution" actually hvings a far further reaching implication once the elite level is left.

didds

 

[L'irlandais]

... so how many extra shirts with 1 and 3 and 16 (and 17?) does a team have to carry? Multiplied by the number of teams in a club? Its not a biggy, I know that - but its an example of how what appears to be "a simple solution" actually hvings a far further reaching implication ...

didds

Hello,
Since most clubs have enough jerseys to go around. A particularily large prop could borrow a jersey from an older age group. A particularily small prop could do the same from the lower age groups. Simple enough solution. Any referee who can refuse to start an underage game because of unnumbered jerseys, probaly isn't ref'in the same community level games we do. (School's ref?)

 

[OB..]

Of course, the reality is that only at the very top levels is that actually an issue (certainly skin tight shirts by design and general non binding issues)

I used to think that as well, but at our last committee meeting, people were complaining about our new set of shirts. Apparently they are the skin tight design, and nobody likes them.

 

[didds]

I guess it was only a matter of time OB!

didds

 

[rugbydave]

So why isn't the Ruling Body seriously considering looser shirts for the props in order to remove one, constant, excuse (or perhaps fair reason?) for poor binding ?

Dave

Personally, I think this is a red herring all the way. The props don't bind illegally because of the shirt, they bind illegally because they are cheating and want an advantage. Ian is right on, props bind legally or not and that should be seen by the referee and/or the AR. And when illegal binds occur, as I've said before it's all to often the result of the tighthead grabing the arm of the looshead, they should be penalized for it. Allowing this to continue will only see more collapses, resets, and penalties -- penalties usually for the wrong reason. And, of course the shirt has nothing to do with the tighthead boring into the hooker which is also all too common, results in poor or nonexistant binding which of course leads to collapses, resets, and penalties -- penalties usually for the wrong reason.

 

[Davet]

well, yes other than a 20 stone prop's shirt worn by a 12 stone prop is gonna be a sail/unwearable.

didds

Didds, you have this exact same problem anyway, props sharing shirts are different sizes now, what difference will it make?

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Much cheaper than designer shirts for props - all front row forwards to wear fluorescent red or green mitts.

"If I can't see your hands, I penalise!"

PS perhaps No 7s as well