time ..... Steve Walsh

[Davet]

The scrum was not awarded, and may never have been awarded.

The scrum is awarded when the ref awards it - the Law doesn't say keep playing if an awarded scrum, or a scrum awarded in potentia, is not complete.

 

[Toby Warren]

But playing advantage disadvantages the team who should be getting it. Are we comfortable with this?

 

[OB..]

But playing advantage disadvantages the team who should be getting it. Are we comfortable with this?

Precisely. The referee is being asked to make a judgement that rightly belongs to the players.

 

[The umpire]

The scrum was not awarded, and may never have been awarded.

The scrum is awarded when the ref awards it - the Law doesn't say keep playing if an awarded scrum, or a scrum awarded in potentia, is not complete.

Actually, the law says "A scrum is awarded at the place of infringement" (my bold) not "will be awarded". So, the scrum is "awarded" when you knock on, unless time has expired, and not when the ref says "knock-on, scrum white".

 

[OB..]

The scrum was not awarded, and may never have been awarded.

The scrum is awarded when the ref awards it - the Law doesn't say keep playing if an awarded scrum, or a scrum awarded in potentia, is not complete.

Actually, the law says "A scrum is awarded at the place of infringement" (my bold) not "will be awarded". So, the scrum is "awarded" when you knock on, unless time has expired, and not when the ref says "knock-on, scrum white".

Another classic ambiguity. The law does not define the point at which a scrum is awarded, and we are yet again scrabbling around among the words to find THE answer.

We need a sensible decision on this. Scrying the entrails (of the Laws) is not the right way to do it.

 

[Davet]

"is" in this context defines where not when.

This forum is notorious for stretching the language as far as it will go and then making some very odd assumptions that have never been a part of the game as I've understood it over the last 45 years.

 

[Agustin]

"is" in this context defines where not when.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0

Is there an equivalent to Goodwin's Law for Bill Clinton references?

 

[dgilks]

The scrum is theoretically awarded when the referee indicates that the knock-on has occurred either by immediately stopping the game and indicating a scrum or by playing advantage. The scrum would have been nominally awarded at 2 seconds to go had advantage not been played thus we come back. Yes, it's a bit messy but it's the fairest outcome I can think of.

 

[crossref]

I think
- advantage
- clock winds down
- the moment your watch cheeps for 'time' you

EITHER shout 'advantage over play on'
OR shout 'no advantage, scrum.

you can't keep playing advantage...and then come back for scrum, as time elapsed.

 

[OB..]

The scrum is theoretically awarded when the referee indicates that the knock-on has occurred either by immediately stopping the game and indicating a scrum or by playing advantage. The scrum would have been nominally awarded at 2 seconds to go had advantage not been played thus we come back. Yes, it's a bit messy but it's the fairest outcome I can think of.

I think
- advantage
- clock winds down
- the moment your watch cheeps for 'time' you

EITHER shout 'advantage over play on'
OR shout 'no advantage, scrum.

you can't keep playing advantage...and then come back for scrum, as time elapsed.

Good evidence of ambiguity? In which case neither side can "prove" it is right. In effect we are all arguing for our personal preference and then claiming the law supports it.

What we need is some attempt to agree what is the best outcome for the game.

My view is that the referee should play advantage as normal, but be entitled to go back if the infringement occurred before time ran out.

 

[Davet]

The scrum is theoretically awarded when the referee indicates that the knock-on has occurred either by immediately stopping the game and indicating a scrum or by playing advantage.

No

The scrum is awarded when it is awarded. Applying tricks to the law to bend meaning gets us nowhere.

If a scrum hasn't been awarded then it hasn't been awarded - it couldn't be simpler.

If you feel the result is unfair for some reason then lobby for a change, but don't try to invent interpretations beyond the simple Laws.

 

[ddjamo]

No

The scrum is awarded when it is awarded. Applying tricks to the law to bend meaning gets us nowhere.

If a scrum hasn't been awarded then it hasn't been awarded - it couldn't be simpler.

If you feel the result is unfair for some reason then lobby for a change, but don't try to invent interpretations beyond the simple Laws.

davet: when do you feel the scrum is officially awarded? making the mark with arm out?

 

[Toby Warren]

Just to add a little, in the preamble to the advantage law it states;

The Law of advantage takes precedence over most other Laws and its purpose is
to make play more continuous with fewer stoppages for infringements.


8.3 Then details which laws it doesn't take precedence over and time is not mentioned (making the ball dead is)

 

[OB..]

If a scrum hasn't been awarded then it hasn't been awarded

That would be fine if the law actually specified the moment when a scrum was awarded (for the purposes of Law 5). As I shall keep on saying, the law is not clear. Assertions do not make it so.

 

[sgoat]

davet: when do you feel the scrum is officially awarded? making the mark with arm out?

I would suggest that the scrum is awarded when you make the mark for it. This would consistent with a PK, which you award by making a mark.

Law 21.7 (d) Interference. The opposing team must not do anything to delay the penalty kick or obstruct the kicker. They must not intentionally take, throw or kick the ball out of reach of the kicker or the kicker’s team mates.

Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick. This mark must not be within 5 metres of the goal line. Any player may take the kick. The kicker may change the type of kick and may choose to kick at goal. If the referee awards a second penalty kick, the second penalty kick is not taken before the referee has made the mark indicating the place of the penalty.

This could be backed up by Law 20.1 (f)

Front rows coming together. First, the referee marks with a foot the place where the scrum is to be formed. Before the two front rows come together they must be standing not more than an arm’s length apart. The ball is in the scrum half’s hands, ready to be thrown in. The front rows must crouch so that when they meet, each player’s head and shoulders are no lower than the hips. The front rows must interlock so that no player’s head is next to the head of a team-mate.

Alternatively if you look at referee signal number 5 at the back of the book it says "scrum awarded". This would suggest the view that when you give your primary signal you are awarding the scrum.

 

[Toby Warren]

I would suggest that the scrum is awarded when you make the mark for it. This would consistent with a PK, which you award by making a mark.

This could be backed up by Law 20.1 (f)

Alternatively if you look at referee signal number 5 at the back of the book it says "scrum awarded". This would suggest the view that when you give your primary signal you are awarding the scrum.

But as pointed out above advantage trumps most law.

 

[sgoat]

From Bryan's post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Law 5
The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum...to the non-infringing team.

Steve Walsh WOULD HAVE awarded a scrum after he blew the whistle. The ball therefore is dead. Play would NOT continue in this case.

It then goes on to explicitly state:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Law 5
If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue

The only way we're restarting is if the above 3 occur.

As Bryan says when Steve Walsh blew to say advantage over the ball was dead.

But as pointed out above advantage trumps most law.

But not all:

8.3 (f) After the ball has been made dead. Advantage cannot be played after the ball has been made dead.

He therefore cannot play an advantage (which is to go back and play a scrum) after he has made the ball dead.


Why are we debating something that is explicitly stated in law. It is simple, at 40 mins you stop unless PK, FK or Mark!!! Don't complicate things.

 

[Toby Warren]

Because by playing advantage you are disadvantaging a team and that is counter intuitive.-

Further more we play advantage in terms like this in a game. Red knock on green try and get advantage don't and the ball goes dead, we stop playing advantage and go back to the scrum.

 

[Davet]

ddjamo - the scrum is awarded when the ref blows his whistle and signals scrum.

Until that point no award has been made, and indeed if advantage is taken no scrum will be awarded at all. Once the award is made then the mark indicating the place is made.

 

[TigerCraig]

My sons team had a similar situation to this.

Last game of the regular season, need to win to make the finals, trailing by 2 points, 25 minutes gone in 2nd half (ie time is up - and as we have no added time at all permitted in junior games, everybody knows when time is up).

Ball is about 30 metres out from oppos line when they drop it. One of our boys picks it up, ref immediately blows for scrum to us (ie doesn't look for advantage), looks at his watch then blows full time. Shook hands with him at the end with a slight gnashing of teeth.