Toulon v Clermont Final

[The Fat]

Waited all day to see a replay of the game for Drew Mitchell's try and it certainly was worth waiting for.

Mitchell was at his best just prior to that horrific ankle dislocation against the Reds a few seasons back but I reckon beating 6 defenders on the way to the try line for that try today will rate as one of his best.

Mitchell and Giteau will never come back. Obviously having too much fun over there.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Another championship successfully purchased by Boudjellal

 

[The Fat]

Another championship successfully purchased by Boudjellal

Quote of the day:
Toulon and New Zealand lock Ali Williams told Sky Sports afterwards that he had "never loved an Australian as much as I loved Drew Mitchell when he scored that try".

 

[Taff]

Another championship successfully purchased by Boudjellal

I'm curious, but how many of the Toulon 23 have any connection with Toulon?

Obviously they play for Toulon, but how many have grown up there, played for Toulon Youth (or the French equivalent) come up through the Toulon academy, count Toulon as home etc etc?

 

[irishref]

I'm not so sure unlimited money buys the best. Sure 3 European cups on the bounce is a record but Toulon look incredibly beatable this year. Close semi and final tells a tale of a team with weaknesses - in coaching and ability to play as a team.

Clermont lost their most inspirational player and points kicker prior to kick off.

I thought the ref had an excellent game, especially at scrumtime!

 

[Pegleg]

...Close semi and final tells a tale of a team with weaknesses - in coaching and ability to play as a team...

Can you explain that?

 

[irishref]

Toulon look shaky in defence. Gaps everywhere that - for example yesterday - Abendon and Fofana exploited easily enough.

Leinster showed also that if you stand your ground at the breakdown and make your first-up tackles all day, Toulon seem bereft of a plan B beyond their pure power game.

 

[The Fat]

Clermont
15 Nick Abendanon
14 Noa Nakaitaci
13 Jonathan Davies
12 Wesley Fofana
11 Napolioni Nalaga
10 Camille Lopez
9 Morgan Parra
1 Vincent Debaty
2 Benjamin Kayser
3 David Zirakashvili
4 Jamie Cudmore
5 Sebastien Vahaamahina
6 Julien Bonnaire
7 Damien Chouly
8 Fritz Lee
Replacements
16 John Ulugia
17 Thomas Domingo
18 Clement Ric
19 Julien Pierre
20 Julien Bardy
21 Ludovic Radosavljevic
22 Mike Delany
23 Aurelien Rougerie

Toulon
15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Drew Mitchell
13 Mathieu Bastareaud
12 Juan Martin Hernandez
11 Bryan Habana
10 Matt Giteau
9 Sebastien Tillous-Borde
1 Xavier Chiocci
2 Guilhem Guirado
3 Carl Hayman
4 Bakkies Botha
5 Ali Williams
6 Juan Smith
7 Steffon Armitage
8 Chris Masoe
Replacements
16 Jean Charles Orioli
17 Alexandre Menini
18 Levan Chilachava
19 Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe
20 Virgile Bruni
21 Rudi Wulf
22 Frederic Michalak
23 Romain Taofifenua

 

[Browner]

I'm curious, but how many of the Toulon 23 have any connection with Toulon?

Obviously they play for Toulon, but how many have grown up there, played for Toulon Youth (or the French equivalent) come up through the Toulon academy, count Toulon as home etc etc?

Why is that relevant?, franchised rugby ( or the Weekly World Cup league , as it will become known when the selection restrictions on SANZAR players are eroded !) Doesn't give a toss where players develop, it only cares about win, someone else can develop, they will just buy the finished article.

 

[Pegleg]

Toulon look shaky in defence. Gaps everywhere that - for example yesterday - Abendon and Fofana exploited easily enough.

Leinster showed also that if you stand your ground at the breakdown and make your first-up tackles all day, Toulon seem bereft of a plan B beyond their pure power game.

That does not answer you comment:

...Close semi and final tells a tale of a team with weaknesses - in coaching and ability to play as a team...

Two close games indicate two fairly evenly matched sides, not that the winner is a team with "weaknesses". Surely it indicates, if anything that Toulon have FEWER weaknesses than the two sides THEY BEAT in those games. Does it not?

 

[OB..]

And, again, what does professionalism lead to? [..] it leads to the wholesale importation of players of repute from other districts or, it may be, countries, to the exclusion of indigenous abilities.
it is passed my comprehension to understand how 11 men, transported from various points of the compass, can inflame with partisanship the natives whom they are actually excluding from the teams which they themselves ought to be representing.

1892. Arthur Budd (England international) decrying the evils of professionalism in soccer.

These days the question is how many Toulon players are qualified to play for France ie is Toulon's ambition weakening the national team?

 

[Taff]

Why is that relevant? ... Doesn't give a toss where players develop, it only cares about win, someone else can develop, they will just buy the finished article.

The impression I have (rightly or wrongly) is that French sides in particular buy in good players from all over the world, and that it is perfectly possible for the whole team to have no connection at all with the club they play for. It seems a bit short-sighted and daft to me if I'm honest. It would be interesting to know what percentage had a genuine Toulon connection - not just ones who had a monthly payslip from Toulon.

 

[Browner]

And, again, what does professionalism lead to? [..] it leads to the wholesale importation of players of repute from other districts or, it may be, countries, to the exclusion of indigenous abilities.
it is passed my comprehension to understand how 11 men, transported from various points of the compass, can inflame with partisanship the natives whom they are actually excluding from the teams which they themselves ought to be representing.

1892. Arthur Budd (England international) decrying the evils of professionalism in soccer.

?

Toulon seem to get sizeable partisan crowds !

 

[Browner]

Waited all day to see a replay of the game for Drew Mitchell's try and it certainly was worth waiting for.

Mitchell was at his best just prior to that horrific ankle dislocation against the Reds a few seasons back but I reckon beating 6 defenders on the way to the try line for that try today will rate as one of his best.

Mitchell and Giteau will never come back. Obviously having too much fun over there.

Here it is again ..... The trail of defenders speaks volumes, a truely world class finish.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1WH-6YOZcs

 

[OB..]

Toulon seem to get sizeable partisan crowds !

(a) I was pointing out that the argument is over 100 years old.
(b) I continued by saying

These days the question is how many Toulon players are qualified to play for France ie is Toulon's ambition weakening the national team?

Everybody knows that Budd's original comment was mistaken, but there is a modern argument.

 

[chrismtl]

The split is close to 50/50 for French v non-French players on each of the 2 teams rosters. This is professional sport, so players will go to the highest paying teams when possible. Countries that require players to play domestically to play for the country internationally will leave for 2 years after a WC and come back in the 2 years leading up to the next WC to get their eligibility back.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Toulon
15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Drew Mitchell
13 Mathieu Bastareaud
12 Juan Martin Hernandez
11 Bryan Habana
10 Matt Giteau
9 Sebastien Tillous-Borde
1 Xavier Chiocci
2 Guilhem Guirado
3 Carl Hayman
4 Bakkies Botha
5 Ali Williams
6 Juan Smith
7 Steffon Armitage
8 Chris Masoe

Replacements
16 Jean Charles Orioli
17 Alexandre Menini
18 Levan Chilachava
19 Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe
20 Virgile Bruni
21 Rudi Wulf
22 Frederic Michalak
23 Romain Taofifenua

Four Frenchmen in the starting XV and five on the bench. That is just over 1/3 of the match day squad

The remaining 14 players

4 New Zealanders
3 South Africans
2 Australians
2 Argentinians
1 Welshman
1 Georgian
1 Enlgishman (Perhaps to be poached by France?)

 

[L'irlandais]

These days the question is how many Toulon players are qualified to play for France ie is Toulon's ambition weakening the national team?

The answer to that question, and indeed to Taff's original query* isn't all that simple: Appearantly, Toulon fielded on average 12 french-formed player per match last season. The tricky bit being how do they define french-formed (see textarea below),

In theory all Top 14 teams must have 21 french formed players in the 35man squad. (60%)
Toulon have 22 "Frenchmen" in their 38man squad.

Jiff = Joueurs Issus de la Filière Formation, Toulon have 22 JiFF this season, 7 formed at the club.
(11 over the course of the whole season) Of those players "formed by the club, at least 1 born in Eastern France, 2 are Georgian. *3 or 4 were born in Toulon itself, the others are more or less local (an hours drive, 3 hours for others)

24 non-French on the team : 6 South Africians, 3 Kiwis, 3 Georgians, 3 English, 2 Aussies (not counting James O' Connor) 2 Argentines, 2 Samoans, 1 Italian, 1 Welshman & 1 Fidjian

The rules were brought in to limit the number of over-seas players. The effect hasn't been as desired for young up and coming french talent. Both the Armitage brothers are considered "home-grown" players under the current rules. Initially it was meant to be 5 seasons played, between the age of 16 and 21 at a Pro club ; but 3 seasons at Nice is considered enough for these two. The Georgian Mamuka Gorgodze was formed at Montpellier so also considered home grown.

Toulon could field a team without any French-born players & still "respect" the LNR's - 2 home-grown players (in the starting 15) rule. Several more of the French players, actually come from the South Sea Islands

Source : on-line stats

 

[L'irlandais]

Four Frenchmen in the starting XV ...

1 Toulon born player (Xavier Chiocci ) in the starting XV + 1 on the bench. (Virgile Bruni)
Actually both of them played under-age for other local clubs before signing for Toulon in 2005/2007

 

[OB..]

Thanks, L'irlandais.

So do those rules comply with the WR definitions of players entitled to represent France internationally?