[In-goal] Try or held up

[Christy]

Ball carrier dives to floor in oppositions in goal. ( with view of scoring try )
As he hits deck , a deffender turns ball carrier , resulting with ball carrier now on his back & clutching ball close to his chest.

Deffender is now under ball carrier , looking to wrap around ball carriers arm , which is holding ball.

Heres my questions
1 ) ball carrier with in only a couple seconds , manages to free his arm & place ball down ( try or held up )

2) ball carrier with after 5 secs , manages to free his arm & place ball down ( try or held up )

3 ) ball carrier in same position , allows a team mate to rip ball from him self & team mates touches ball dowm ( try or held up )

 

[crossref]

Ball carrier dives to floor in oppositions in goal. ( with view of scoring try )
As he hits deck , a deffender turns ball carrier , resulting with ball carrier now on his back & clutching ball close to his chest.

Deffender is now under ball carrier , looking to wrap around ball carriers arm , which is holding ball.

Heres my questions
1 ) ball carrier with in only a couple seconds , manages to free his arm & place ball down ( try or held up )

2) ball carrier with after 5 secs , manages to free his arm & place ball down ( try or held up )

3 ) ball carrier in same position , allows a team mate to rip ball from him self & team mates touches ball dowm ( try or held up )

in all cases - when the players hit the ground the referee should pause for a short time and wait and see what happens - will a try be scored, or will the ball be held up.

in each all three I think the answer is the same : if the event happens quickly enough it's a try...

it's not really a question of how long to wait - in practice what happens is : either a try is scored or other players arrive at great speed, creating a dangerous pile up and the ref quickly blows before someone is hurt. Held up.

 

[Phil E]

in all cases - when the players hit the ground the referee should pause for a short time and wait and see what happens - will a try be scored, or will the ball be held up.

So it's all about how long to wait?

in each all three I think the answer is the same : if the event happens quickly enough it's a try...

it's not really a question of how long to wait

So it's NOT about how long to wait?

- in practice what happens is : either a try is scored or other players arrive at great speed, creating a dangerous pile up and the ref quickly blows before someone is hurt. Held up.

So it IS about how long to wait?

 

[Christy]

in all cases - when the players hit the ground the referee should pause for a short time and wait and see what happens - will a try be scored, or will the ball be held up.

in each all three I think the answer is the same : if the event happens quickly enough it's a try...

it's not really a question of how long to wait - in practice what happens is : either a try is scored or other players arrive at great speed, creating a dangerous pile up and the ref quickly blows before someone is hurt. Held up.

Yes i agree .
Ive seen in couple matches , where ball carrier had try allowed , for what i felt had been held up for a reasonable amount of time ( happened to munster season finished )

But yes ,i would be of same thinking .

 

[crossref]

So it's all about how long to wait?



So it's NOT about how long to wait?



So it IS about how long to wait?

I meant it's not a certain number of seconds... the short while is invariably ended by other players arriving and piling in.

what's your answer to Christy's quesitons ? something completely different to mine?

 

[DocY]

Ball carrier dives to floor in oppositions in goal. ( with view of scoring try )
As he hits deck , a deffender turns ball carrier , resulting with ball carrier now on his back & clutching ball close to his chest.

Deffender is now under ball carrier , looking to wrap around ball carriers arm , which is holding ball.

This happened to me once - it was very embarrassing!

 

[Dickie E]

3 ) ball carrier in same position , allows a team mate to rip ball from him self & team mates touches ball dowm ( try or held up )

Not going to make too much of this but have a look at the wording:

[LAWS]22.10 Ball held up in-goal
When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.
[/LAWS]

It appears that the ball carrier has only one option and that is to ground the ball. If he doesn't ground it (eg team mate rips ball from him) then ball is dead.

Like I said, just an oddity in wording. Probably not how I'd referee it on a Saturday

 

[Staffs_Ref]

Not going to make too much of this but have a look at the wording:

[LAWS]22.10 Ball held up in-goal
When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.
[/LAWS]

It appears that the ball carrier has only one option and that is to ground the ball. If he doesn't ground it (eg team mate rips ball from him) then ball is dead.

Like I said, just an oddity in wording. Probably not how I'd referee it on a Saturday

I like this post from Dickie E, because I think it sums up quite neatly a situation that we, as referees, will find ourselves confronted with in various ways on a regular basis.

There are undoubtedly oddities in wording within the law book and, as other threads on here have illustrated, times when the laws don't cover every possible scenario explicitly. Ultimately, we are still going to need to referee it on a Saturday and often it will be a question of what looks and feels right.

 

[Pegleg]

I think we are in danger of making too much of this with forensic analysis of wording - We all know that WR wording has more holes in it than the Welsh defence.

Player goes in goal. allow a little time for the situation to resolve. What is little time? YOU, as ref, are the judge of that. Don't stand and watch an arm wrestle. If in that "immediate" period the ball is grounded by the player or a teammate gathers the ball and scores / moves the ball away, we have "happy days" if not blow and get on with the game.

Why make a rod for your own back. YOU judge it. YOU call it!

 

[FlipFlop]

For me it is all about how long the initial motion takes to stop. I'm not going to allow prolonged wrestling, but if the bodies are still moving from the initial action, then fine. How long is that? Depends....

 

[ChrisR]

When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead.

What is missing (by intent?) from the law is any reference to time. Not "immediately", not "without delay" and not "5 seconds".

Therefore your judgement comes down to "cannot ground the ball" and the likelihood of that occurring. I agree with those who would prevent continued wrestling with one exception ...

If all players are on their feet and are being driven toward the dead ball line or touch-in-goal then I'd allow the defenders the opportunity to gain the 22DO (assuming attackers took it in) or the attackers to ground it for the try.

 

[DocY]

If all players are on their feet and are being driven toward the dead ball line or touch-in-goal then I'd allow the defenders the opportunity to gain the 22DO (assuming attackers took it in) or the attackers to ground it for the try.

But but but! What if it gets driven back into the FoP then collapses?

(I'm running and hiding now)

 

[FlipFlop]

But but but! What if it gets driven back into the FoP while wearing leggings and then collapses?

(I'm running and hiding now)

Fixed that for you.. :biggrin:

 

[ChrisR]

But but but! What if it gets driven back into the FoP then collapses?

That's called a "tackle" or a "collapsed maul" and I think there could be some Law that covers it.

 

[crossref]

That's called a "tackle" or a "collapsed maul" and I think there could be some Law that covers it.

the process of how a maul-like-thing crosses the tryline and into the FoP, and becomes a maul , with maul Laws suddenly applying, could be very tricky to manage

 

[ChrisR]

the process of how a maul-like-thing crosses the tryline and into the FoP, and becomes a maul , with maul Laws suddenly applying, could be very tricky to manage

Yes, it could be tricky and the alternative would be to blow it up quickly in goal as "held up". Not my preference as I would rather things play out even at the risk of getting messy.

 

[Pinky]

When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead.

What is missing (by intent?) from the law is any reference to time. Not "immediately", not "without delay" and not "5 seconds".

Therefore your judgement comes down to "cannot ground the ball" and the likelihood of that occurring. I agree with those who would prevent continued wrestling with one exception ...

If all players are on their feet and are being driven toward the dead ball line or touch-in-goal then I'd allow the defenders the opportunity to gain the 22DO (assuming attackers took it in) or the attackers to ground it for the try.

marauder, you r exception is covered in 22.10 - a maul like thing cannot take place in the in-goal so it is dead ball and 5m scrum. Pushing it out for a 22DO is not allowed

 

[OB..]

marauder, you r exception is covered in 22.10 - a maul like thing cannot take place in the in-goal so it is dead ball and 5m scrum. Pushing it out for a 22DO is not allowed

"so that the player cannot grounds the ball". If we allow time to determine that, then that time might also be used to push the ex-maul back into the field of play.

Rather than get into the complications of re-forming a maul in that way, perhaps it is best just to say that by pushing the ex-maul out of in-goal the defence has prevented the opponent from grounding the ball. Scrum 5.

 

[ChrisR]

.... and if the not-a-maul is pushed ito touch-in-goal or over the dead ball line then that would also meet 22.10 "so that the player cannot ground the ball" standard.

And, so would any player who carries the ball into goal but is grasped and held up and forced into DB or TiG. An attacking 5m scrum seems a paltry result for a defender preventing a try.

 

[crossref]

marauder, you r exception is covered in 22.10 - a maul like thing cannot take place in the in-goal so it is dead ball and 5m scrum. Pushing it out for a 22DO is not allowed

pushing it out for a 22DO may be rather unlikely, but I don't see why you say it's not allowed.

If a maul formed very close to the corner flag, went into the in goal, and then quickly into TIG, I'd give a 22DO