u14 game - pushed into touch in goal - what's the decision?

[Dan_A]

This is something from my son's game on Saturday. He's in the u14s so playing RFU junior regs.

The opposition winger (very speedy, good player) beat three or four defenders and crossed the tryline in the corner.

Before he managed to ground the ball one of the defenders pushed him into touch. It was two handed, a gentle shove, there was plenty of run-off, it was NOT a shoulder barge.

What's the correct decision please?

p.s. I'll post up what the referee actually did in a bit, it caused much discussion!

 

[Dickie E]

[LAWS](g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player. Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Whilst being mindful of 10.4(g) (above) I expect I would have gone with a 22 drop out (assuming push was as gentle as described)

 

[menace]

22m drop out.

22.11.(b)
When a player carrying the ball touches the touch-in-goal line, the dead ball line, or touches the ground beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead. If the ball was carried into in-goal by the attacking team, a drop-out shall be awarded to the defending team. If the ball was carried into in-goal by the defending team, a 5-metre scrum shall be awarded and the attacking team throws in the ball.

 

[crossref]

From your description it wasn't dangerous.

Therefore I'd go with Law 7 that specifically says it's legal to push a ball carrier

[LAWS]7.1 Playing a match
A match is started by a kick-off.
After the kick-off, any player who is onside may take the ball and run with it.
Any player may throw it or kick it.
Any player may give the ball to another player.
Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.
Any player may fall on the ball.
Any player may take part in a scrum, ruck, maul or lineout.
Any player may ground the ball in in-goal.
A ball carrier may hand-off an opponent.
Whatever a player does must be in accordance with the Laws of the Game.
[/LAWS]

22m drop out.

(If he had have been dangerously shoulder-charged, or neck-tackled into TIG, then a Penalty Try and a YC)

 

[menace]

[LAWS](g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player. Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Whilst being mindful of 10.4(g) (above) I expect I would have gone with a 22 drop out (assuming push was as gentle as described)

A consideration, certainly at juniors, but not get too precious about it as a push with hands is fine
[LAWS]Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.[/LAWS]

Edit: beaten by crossref!

 

[Dickie E]

If the ref thought it was foul play I'd guess he would award a PT.

 

[Dickie E]

Always a twist to these things. So if the "push" (allowed under 7.1) was firm enough to "knock down" (disallowed under 10.4(g)) the ball carrier - what's the call?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Pushing a player over is not the same as knocking a player over.

IMO, 10.4 (g) does not preclude pushing a player over, it precludes knocking a player over.... big difference. The danger in knocking a player over (as in a shoulder charge) is the hard impact, but by its very nature, a push is done with an open hand and bent arms that straighten.

It would be hard to argue (or at least hard to prove) that a player pushing an opponent with open hands is not grasping.

However, I am mindful of the fact that this is U14 we are talking about, and there can be some considerable size and strength disparities between players, especially in unrestricted weight divisions, so we should err the side of caution.

 

[Taff]

I'm not familiar with the "RFU junior Regs" but if it had happened to me, I would give a 22m Drop Out.

The logic being the ball was taken in-goal by the attackers and made dead.

 

[Dan_A]

The referee gave a penalty try explaining that pushing was illegal. It was definitely not dangerous (I deliberately described it as a gentle 2 handed shove).

Crossref quotes Law 7, which is where I ended up on the day. To me the referee just got this one wrong. No sour grapes they won fair and square, but I do hate it when 30 young lads playing rugby are told something that is just wrong.

 

[crossref]

TBF - it's not an unusual mistake at that level. I have seen it.

You may well have a dad-who-refs, at the course he went to they'll have had safety/safety/safety rubbed in to them, and so that tends to be at the forefront of your mind.

Then on the field you see something unusual, and it isn't a tackle ... and no doubt you have some oohs/ahhs from spectators ... so...


It's a good one for a post-match conversation.

 

[Dan_A]

If this was a club match I would definitely have bought the chap a beer afterwards and asked him about it.

However, this was a school match and I was there in a strictly parental capacity, and somehow that feels different. The referee was clearly their coach and teacher and has probably been refereeing for years. And I couldn't figure out how to raise it without being the disrespectful pushy parent who is a sore loser....

 

[Camquin]

The Age Grade regs are here
http://www.englandrugby.com/mm//Doc...4/97/RFU_Regulation_15_appendix_2_Neutral.pdf

Nothing preventing a push into touch - except usual provision of dangerous play.

So I think Sir got it wrong.

 

[Pinky]

Well played, your boys played well and deserved to win. Can I ask you about one decision you made?