[Junior] U14 Rugby - Lineout

[Willehj]

As U14 lineouts are uncontested and the age related variation states the " a lineout ends when the ball or player carrying it leaves the the lineout or the ball goes beyond the 15m or intot he 5m channel" are you able to create a maul?

My thoughts are by creating a maul you are creating a vehilce for both teams to contest which is against the directive of uncontested lineouts.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Huw

 

[L'irlandais]

Hi,
You haven’t said which Union you are in. It will influence the answer to you question.

The contest for possession can start once the player who catches the ball has safely returned to the ground. The non-throwing team cannot contest possession whilst the ball is in the air.

In England the lineout maul is fine. No contest in the air, is what is meant. This may be different in other Unions.

 

[Decorily]

In IRFUland there is no lifting in the lineout but there is a 'contest' and a maul may be formed.

 

[Willehj]

It is is the Uk but your resposne does not make sense.

They are not aloud to lift therefore they are not on the air.

The law states contest and does not differentiate between floor or air. Therefore a maul, which by nature, is a contest action is not permitted.

The full law clearly states that a maul is OK from the lineout and clearly specifies the criteria for when the lineout is over namely that" when all the feet of all players in the maul move beyond the line of touch"

 

[L'irlandais]

Well perhaps you can link to the latest version of RFU U14 laws. That was from a 2016 version where U14 and U15 were grouped together (apparently). If today the lift is only allowed in U15,then you are more up to date with local variations than I can hope to be here in Eastern France. It seems clear to me that the lineout throw is not contested, but afterwards a contest/ maul is permitted.

Here it is
[LAWS]15. The Lineout:
(Introduction of the uncontested lineout.)
b) The ball must be thrown down the middle of the channel. If the throw is not straight, a lineout will be awarded to the opposing team. If this throw is not straight, a scrum will be awarded to the (team originally awarded the line out) on the 15m line.
[/LAWS]

From this page RFU Regulations . Unfortunately the Laws are poorly written, so they only mention what they want respected. However if the maul was specifically forbidden at lineout time, I do honestly think they would say so under U14 variations. That is to say, if it’s not mentioned in the variation, then the LoTG apply.

U14 in France Regulations in French forbid lifting in the lineout; no mention of uncontested lineouts that I can see. Interesting that the tackle is from waist down and the ballcarrier must not dip into the tackle (freekick). As the player who makes the tackle dangerous will be systematically sent off.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

It is is the Uk but your resposne does not make sense.

They are not aloud to lift therefore they are not on the air.

The law states contest and does not differentiate between floor or air. Therefore a maul, which by nature, is a contest action is not permitted.

The full law clearly states that a maul is OK from the lineout and clearly specifies the criteria for when the lineout is over namely that" when all the feet of all players in the maul move beyond the line of touch"

Which part of the UK? In Wales U14s play WR youth laws.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Rugby "VARIATIONS" are just that. The Laws of the game (WR) apply UNLESS a union imposes a further restriction. That is the WR Lawbook appliessubject to specified arariation beeing in place.


As the RFU U14 variations do not disallow a maul AFTER the catcher lands then it is safe to assume the maul is allowed.

Of course as stated previously we need t onow where in the UK you are referring to.

 

[Willehj]

All good stuff.

Below the English U14 variation dated 1 August 2019.

15. The Lineout:a) The lineout will be awarded from the touchline level with where the ball crossedthe line, to the opponents of the player who touched the ball before it went intotouch.b) The ball must be thrown down the middle of the channel. If the throw is notstraight, a lineout will be awarded to the opposing team. If this throw is notstraight, a scrum will be awarded to the (team originally awarded the line out) onthe 15m line.c) The lineout will be uncontested by up to 13 players from each teamd) No lifting or supporting of any kind is allowed.e) Players not involved in the lineout must remain 10 metres behind the mark andmust do so until invited forward by the referee.f) The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout or the ballgoes beyond the 15m or into the 5m channel.

No mention of lifting as this comes in at U15.

Therefore clubs have interpreted the law as not allowing any contest at the lineout and others have coached mauls as an option.

Very confusing as the word contested has not been clarified and therefore as the law is written there shoudl be no contest until lineout over as per f) above.

Thoughts!

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Well, three of us have given our thoughts already. To further help. If yo ulook at other age groups the maul is specifically banned. Here it is not. Whilst the lineout is not over until certain conditions apply the "contest£ for the ball is Logically the jump and catch part. Again that is dealt with, No as this age group does not prohibit the maul we can assume it is now allowed.

 

[Willehj]

Lets agree to disgree until hopefully the RFU answer my email and give a difinitive definition.

However uncontested is used for the scrum and if we ue that wording and giudance then it should aslo apply to the lineout

Uncontested scrum: [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A scrum in which the team throwing-in gains possession without contest, with neither team being allowed to push from the mark[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular].[/FONT]

 

[Marc Wakeham]

You're missing the point. In the scrum law you quote it SPECIFICALLY states no push. Therefore the variation is applied. The Line out contains no similar variation.

You've asked for help. Three experienced referees have offered help and you are not happy with that help because it disagrees with your view point. I'll leave it there.

 

[crossref]

It seems to me a good question, and one that only the RFU can really answer (assuming you are in England)

 

[L'irlandais]

Which part of the UK? In Wales U14s play WR youth laws.

We have found some common ground. In Northern ireland, part of the UK they’d be subject to IRFU variations. So in terms of identifying which Union’s variations apply, saying the UK is a little unhelpful. At least we know France lets its U14 contest, but no lifting. Much the same as the IRFU. I’d be very surprised in the RFU came back with a different answer.

@Willejh You ask for our thoughts. Okay. The uncontested bit relates only to the throw-in to the lineout, no where is it suggested that the lineout maul is prohibited. You will need to show me written evidence to the contrary to convince me otherwise. Are you still maintaining that it is forbidden? The idea of applying scrum variations to support your position doesn’t make any sense, to be honest. It is a step by step introduction to the setpiece for young players, you just need to read the U15 variations to see where this leads.
[LAWS]Lineout is uncontested at U15
(b) Lifting and supporting is permitted at this age group, i.e. a player may bind to a jumper until he has returned to the ground.[/LAWS]
The 2016 (RFU) variations from my earlier post have simply been poorly rewritten. It seems abundantly clear to me, they just removed the lift from U14, nothing more. So the earlier quote should not be completely disregarded, only the “air” has been removed from U14.
[LAWS]The contest for possession can start once the player who catches the ball has safely returned to the ground. The non-throwing team cannot contest possession whilst the ball is in the air.[/LAWS]Once the ball has been thrown straight in, the contest can begin.

 

[Rich_NL]

I'm not a UK ref, but it seems there's no prohibition on the maul. Uncontested lineout means the side throwing in get the ball. They're free to pass it out or set up a maul - or do they get penalised for the latter?

But it's a question for the RFU, and surely their job to disseminate the ideas behind the age grade rules to the coaches.

 

[mcroker]

In RFU land... the wording of the regulations and supporting line out FAQ are slightly ambiguous/contradictory
https://www.englandrugby.com//dxdam...-a34c-957c5a764bcf/resources-line-out-faq.pdf

Specifically
[LAWS]The lineout will be uncontested.[/LAWS]
[LAWS]The lineout ends when... a ruck or maul forms and all of the feet of all of the players in the ruck ormaul move beyond the mark of touch.[/LAWS]

If the lineout is uncontested, how did the ruck or maul form?

In practice the above is consistently interpreted to mean that the lift is uncontested, but once the jumper returns to ground a contest can start.

It's worth asking in the pre-match-briefing. My personal nuance is that I consider the ball fairly won when the jumper brings the ball to waist-height (to project the jumper's exposed ribs).

 

[mcroker]

Also (to actually answer the OP) based on RFU line-out FAQ (again assuming England)
https://www.englandrugby.com//dxdam...-a34c-957c5a764bcf/resources-line-out-faq.pdf

[LAWS]Can a maul be formed from the lineout?

U14> Yes, but the player must return safely to the ground before the opposition can contest the ball. Normal World Rugby Laws apply.

U15> Yes, but the player must have been returned safely to the ground before the opposition can contest the ball.Normal World Rugby Laws apply.[/LAWS]

 

[Flish]

This happens all the time, the variations wording is pretty poor so we go with the FAQ for the detail, coaches very rarely get as far as seeing that doc though

 

[Phil E]

Lets agree to disgree until hopefully the RFU answer my email and give a difinitive definition.

They have already given a definitive definition.
All your questions should be answered in this document.

View attachment Age-Grade-FAQ-on-Lineout.pdf

Whilest U14 cannot lift, they can jump for the ball.

The contest for possession can start once the player who catches the ball has safely
returned to the ground. The non-throwing team cannot contest possession whilst
the ball is in the air.

 

[Jz558]

I would agree with the OP that the wording in the variation is not as clear as it could be however I referee several U14 games a season (and coached an U14 side when the same variation was in place) and haven't yet come across a team who coach that the formation of a maul following a catch is prohibited. The answer is fairly clear in the FAQ pdf that Phil E has referenced. In my PMB I always outline when the competition for the ball can begin (when both feet are back on the ground following a jump at U14 or lift/jump at U15) and warn defending teams that I will be monitoring the hit following the return to earth of the catcher.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I'd avoid using phrases like "the hit".