Unsuccessful turnover

wrighty


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Red7 tackles blue player, 7 gets up legally, grabs ball, then is quickly wrapped up by supporting blue players.Ball unplayable, who gets put in ? All happened to me very quickly, think I gave blues put in, but felt red 7 was hard done by after great turn over.
 

Jacko


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Sounds like you're reffing this as a maul. Don't forget that for a maul to be formed, you need a ball carrier, at least one opponent and at least one team mate of the ball carrier which you don't appear to have in your original post. If it becomes unplayable and it's not a maul, the side going forward gets the put in (attacking side if no one is going forward).

Although it can feel that the player is getting hard done by, it might not be the case. At least he has slowed down the opposition attack and allowed his defence to get organised to defend a scrum.
 

Dickie E


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you sometimes see this when a ball carrier is grabbed by an opponent, the opponent wrests the ball from him, then the cavalry from both sides arrive. If maul becomes unplayable, whose put in?
 

Ian_Cook


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I've edited your quote for clarity

you sometimes see this when a (Gold) ball carrier is grabbed by a (Blue) opponent, the (Blue) opponent wrests the ball from him, then the cavalry from both sides arrive. If maul becomes unplayable, whose put in?

Blue has possession when the maul formed, so, Blue taken into maul then unplayable

Scrum Gold!

It doesn't seem fair, but in the same vein as what Jacko said, Blue has his chance to clear it but couldn't!
 

The Fat


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Red7 tackles blue player, 7 gets up legally, grabs ball, then is quickly wrapped up by supporting blue players.Ball unplayable, who gets put in ? All happened to me very quickly, think I gave blues put in, but felt red 7 was hard done by after great turn over.


So red 7 has gone to ground as a tackler and has then stood up and then picked up the ball as he is entitled to do. At this point the ball is likely to still be in the "tackle zone" as 7 red is securing possession. First question therefore is did the arriving blue players enter the tackle area through the gate? If not, then there will be a PK offence there against blue for incorrect entry. If they did arrive legally and red 7 is standing there with the ball, then when they wrap him up we have neither a ruck or maul, we have general play. If red 7 is then taken to ground by the blue players, we have a tackle. The next thing that must happen is for blue tacklers to release and roll away. If no other red players are involved, we don't have an unplayable ruck because no ruck has formed. If blue tacklers held on and didn't release, therefore making the ball unplayable, no-one should get an "unsuccessful turnover???", it should be a PK against blue for not releasing.
 

Browner

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felt red 7 was hard done by after great turn over.

It was 'potentially' a turnover, which never quiet got there - "unlucky lad, good attempt though, next time - if your teammates arrive in sufficient numbers before the opposition do likewise, then you're more likely to be successful" :wink:
 

The Fat


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It was 'potentially' a turnover, which never quiet got there - "unlucky lad, good attempt though, next time - if your teammates arrive in sufficient numbers before the opposition do likewise, then you're more likely to be successful" :wink:

But wrighty doesn't say why it is unplayable. All he says is that one red player is wrapped up by two blue players. Now if they are all on their feet and blue entered the tackle zone legally, then we are still in general play. If the two blue players have wrapped the one red player up and then taken him to ground we have a tackle and someone must release and roll away. If there are only the three players mentioned involved, then how did we get to an unplayable situation?
 

Browner

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But wrighty doesn't say why it is unplayable. All he says is that one red player is wrapped up by two blue players. Now if they are all on their feet and blue entered the tackle zone legally, then we are still in general play. If the two blue players have wrapped the one red player up and then taken him to ground we have a tackle and someone must release and roll away. If there are only the three players mentioned involved, then how did we get to an unplayable situation?

I was merely assuming that 'wrapped up' meant 'held up/engulfed' [& a 2nd red didn't bind onto red 7 - so no maul] because 'taken to ground' wasn't mentioned. but i'm accepting of all your points IF that's what happened instead.
 

The Fat


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So wrighty, what position were the three players in when you believe it became unplayable i.e. all standing or all on ground etc
 

wrighty


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Red 7, legally picks up ball, he is still in the middle of what was a ruck, in contact with opposition and at least one team mate who is bound onto him.We now have a maul.Ball wrapped up by blue,eventually becomes a pile up, therefore unsuccesful end to maul.Scrum blue, correct ?
 

Taff


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Red7 tackles blue player, 7 gets up legally, grabs ball, then is quickly wrapped up by supporting blue players.Ball unplayable, who gets put in ? All happened to me very quickly, think I gave blues put in, but felt red 7 was hard done by after great turn over.
I know exactly what you mean, but after querying this myself a year or so ago, I've accepted that he had his chance to get rid of the ball but failed. Seems harsh, but that's the way it is.
 

ChrisR

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There is a general tendency for referees, and it's evident in this forum, to empathize with the players in possession of the ball. I think it's natural because: a. we all want to see some "nice rugby" and b. my guess is that most of the offences in law are by the players not in possession.

This a case where the quick play by Red 7 to tackle, get up and take the ball has been negated by the quick play of the Blue players. Both sides did well and Red will be rewarded with the put-in at the subsequent scrum (if I understand the OP correctly). That's rugby.
 

Taff


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Red7 tackles blue player, 7 gets up legally, grabs ball, then is quickly wrapped up ... who gets put in ? All happened to me very quickly ... felt red 7 was hard done by after great turn over.
There is a general tendency for referees, and it's evident in this forum, to empathize with the players in possession of the ball. ... This a case where the quick play by Red 7 to tackle, get up and take the ball has been negated by the quick play of the Blue players. Both sides did well and Red will be rewarded with the put-in at the subsequent scrum (if I understand the OP correctly).
Sorry, but I don't think you understood the OP correctly. :biggrin:

Despite a superb jackal by Red, they won't get the put in at a subsequent scrum, because they were in possession of the ball when the maul was formed.

If I was in charge, I would change treat these the same as a maul formed direct from an opponents kick.
 
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ChrisR

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"Red7 tackles blue player, 7 gets up legally, grabs ball, then is quickly wrapped up by supporting blue players.Ball unplayable, who gets put in ? "

Taff, I think you're right. No mention in the OP of Red 7 being taken to ground. The missing piece is another Red player joining to create the maul. If the ball is not on the ground (ruck with ball unplayable, Red put-in) and no maul has formed (no second red) but the ball is unplayable (not sure how as Blue can still execute a tackle) then my guess is 'team going forward'.
 

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Wrighty said:
Red7 tackles blue player, 7 gets up legally, grabs ball, then is quickly wrapped up by supporting blue players.Ball unplayable, who gets put in ? All happened to me very quickly, think I gave blues put in, but felt red 7 was hard done by after great turn over.

Sorry, but I don't think you understood the OP correctly. :biggrin:

Despite a superb jackal by Red, they won't get the put in at a subsequent scrum, because they were in possession of the ball when the maul was formed.

Sorry Taff, it is you that has not understood the OP correctly :biggrin:

Maul check list
Ball carrier. Check (Red 7)
Opposition player (s). Check (several Blue players)
Team mate of Ball carrier (RED). NO check

There is no maul!
 
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"Red7 tackles blue player, 7 gets up legally, grabs ball, then is quickly wrapped up by supporting blue players.Ball unplayable, who gets put in ? "

Taff, I think you're right. No mention in the OP of Red 7 being taken to ground. The missing piece is another Red player joining to create the maul. If the ball is not on the ground (ruck with ball unplayable, Red put-in) and no maul has formed (no second red) but the ball is unplayable (not sure how as Blue can still execute a tackle) then my guess is 'team going forward'.

If we assume that the OP refers to a tackle in a "rugby law" sense the tackled player goes to ground and a person is only called a tackler if he too goes to ground. So Red 7 goes to ground by definition.

The blue supporting players wrap red 7 up in a "?" its not a ruck (ball off the ground), nor is it a maul (no team mate of the ball carrier bound on to him) and no mention of a completed tackle. So I would guess it is team going forward or attacking side if no one going forward.
 

Taff


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Sorry Taff, it is you that has not understood the OP correctly :biggrin: There is no maul!
... The blue supporting players wrap red 7 up in a "?" its not a ruck (ball off the ground), nor is it a maul (no team mate of the ball carrier bound on to him) and no mention of a completed tackle. So I would guess it is team going forward or attacking side if no one going forward.
I know Wrighty didn't mention a bound on team mate, but I assumed they were there.

If they weren't then what exactly has become "unplayable"? If the ball's been jackaled, and the new ball carrier is "wrapped up" with no bound on team mates, then all we have is a group hug between consenting adults. It's not a tackle, ruck or maul.

Wrighty, help me out here sunshine. I know you don't mention it .... but was there a maul or not? :biggrin:
 
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winchesterref


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Red 7, legally picks up ball, he is still in the middle of what was a ruck, in contact with opposition and at least one team mate who is bound onto him.We now have a maul.Ball wrapped up by blue,eventually becomes a pile up, therefore unsuccesful end to maul.Scrum blue, correct ?

Post 10. Suggests bound team mate.
 

Browner

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Now Wrighty is confusing with his wording ...."in the middle of what was a ruck" !?!? .... From the description RED Tackler became RED ball winner after the tackle ...ie getting to the ball 1st & secured possession before a ruck was formed. Then Blue engulfed him, & then [& only because Wrighty uses the word 'unplayable' at his conclusion] a Maul forms, and if this is correct then RED have taken the ball into the maul which has now become unplayable so... SCRUM BLUE Feed. If a Maul doesn't form [ie 2nd RED doesn't bind onto 1st RED], then it retains status as a tackle by blue/s, which means the correct decision should have been PK to RED for the blue tackler/s not rolling away after their tackle to allow the ball to be playable.
 
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