Wales - England: Garces

[FlipFlop]

Interesting one for me:

Few areas I thought odd, that are not mentioned in other threads:

Yellow Card:
Garces gives the YC for (I assume) not rolling away (Although I seen people say it was deliberate knock on). No problem here....

But then he goes to the TMO to see if a try had been scored.

There was no try, so all was okay (hell - he hit the post so high up, I have no idea why the TMO was involved). BUT if there had been a try, would he have had to rescind the Yellow Card? As this action was after the incident that the TMO was looking at to see if a try was scored.

Just seemed a curious order.

Consistency
Is it just me, or did his decisions in the second half (especially at T/R) not be consistent to the first half? Speed of them being given, what was given? Watching it in the pub with Welsh, Kiwi, English etc - all agreed that he didn't appear consistent with some of his decisions, and that the last quarter bore no resemblance to the first quarter in terms of his decision making and what and when he blew! (But I don't have a recording, and there were several pints involved, so may just be impression)

 

[Phil E]

Consistency
Is it just me, or did his decisions in the second half (especially at T/R) not be consistent to the first half? Speed of them being given, what was given? Watching it in the pub with Welsh, Kiwi, English etc - all agreed that he didn't appear consistent with some of his decisions, and that the last quarter bore no resemblance to the first quarter in terms of his decision making and what and when he blew! (But I don't have a recording, and there were several pints involved, so may just be impression)

You could start that conversation with why the very first penalty for obstruction was 5 minutes from the end and stopped a try (doesn't matter who by). There had been instances of crossing and dodgy dummy runners all game (from both sides), which had been ignored.

 

[Browner]

At that level are referees subject to coach or referee advisor half time 'guidance' ?

 

[The Fat]

At that level are referees subject to coach or referee advisor half time 'guidance' ?

Hmmmm, not sure but I may be able to find out if no confirmation from others on here.

May take a while as would need to wait till his assessor from that game gets back to Aus and I can get someone north of the border to ask him. Will he divulge that info? not sure but don't see why he wouldn't tell what sort of things are discussed and when.
Personally, I don't think the assessor would say anything at half time unless perhaps the ref was having an absolute nightmare of a game and the assessor could help avoid a train wreck.

 

[TheBFG]

with regards to inconsistency there was one glaring example. He pings Cole for not rolling away in the tackle, but the ball was clearly available and was played by the R9, TBH didn't have too much of a problem with that call, he'd made a few of those (Wales kick for goal and miss :wow: ). BUT then 3-5 mins later 1/2penny gets himself in a horrible position and panics about "trying to role away" and spends a good few seconds clearly in the way, but no PK :shrug:

 

[Pegleg]

Yellow Card:
Garces gives the YC for (I assume) not rolling away (Although I seen people say it was deliberate knock on). No problem here....

But then he goes to the TMO to see if a try had been scored.

There was no try, so all was okay (hell - he hit the post so high up, I have no idea why the TMO was involved). BUT if there had been a try, would he have had to rescind the Yellow Card? As this action was after the incident that the TMO was looking at to see if a try was scored.

Just seemed a curious order.

The try being scored or not has no bearing on the YC if the "offence" deseves a card then so be it, try or not.

Consistency
Is it just me, or did his decisions in the second half (especially at T/R) not be consistent to the first half? Speed of them being given, what was given? Watching it in the pub with Welsh, Kiwi, English etc - all agreed that he didn't appear consistent with some of his decisions, and that the last quarter bore no resemblance to the first quarter in terms of his decision making and what and when he blew! (But I don't have a recording, and there were several pints involved, so may just be impression)

There are always questions about consistency and a few valid points raised in replty to your post. Your view is fairly widely supported.

 

[crossref]

surely it's the same at every level : of course the ref will check in with the ARs and the coach at half time and have a discussion, so things might get tweaked -- but no coach is going to normally tell a ref to be completely different in the second half, as massive inconsistency isn't going to help anyone.

 

[TheBFG]

it's 2 mins apart actually!!!!!

Cole incident 32.40 on game clock

1/2penny incident 34.35 on game clock

 

[OB..]

At that level are referees subject to coach or referee advisor half time 'guidance' ?

The RFU system (we had a talk from Matt Carley recently) is that they have a Match Observer at that level who notes various incidents for review. The referee is given a copy of the video and MO's list of incidents. He than has to make his own observations which are subsequently discussed with his coach. There is no post-match debrief. A fortiori, no half time chat.

Personally i never try to change a referee's style at half time. I would only do so if something dangerous was happening. I have only intervened once, when the referee almost used the man-off rule in a game where it did not apply.

 

[dave_clark]

Personally i never try to change a referee's style at half time. I would only do so if something dangerous was happening.

i used the same approach when watching real newbies at my club. often they'd come over at half time expecting for advice on what they needed to change, and would seem surprised at getting no technical stuff at that point.

coaches also seem surprised at first, however once in the bar they got the point (indeed, the home coaches started explaining this to the visitors themselves).

 

[Browner]

OK, so if its generally accepted that no interpretation changes are being fed into the referee at halftime, then any adjustment by the referee in the second half must only come from his own self review/conscience ???

Hmmnn???, all the watchers I sat with sensed a 'noticeable change' in the 'tolerances' compared to the first half, so something probably clicked.

Maybe England piped in some ' music' into his changing room ........ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=49jxDSYr_xg

 

[SimonSmith]

It's entirely possible the To3 had a chat amongst themselves and decided that they needed a course correction. I've done that before with ARs. They'll often see things in the game that I'm not.

 

[crossref]

It's entirely possible the To3 had a chat amongst themselves and decided that they needed a course correction. I've done that before with ARs. They'll often see things in the game that I'm not.

I think that's the key -- any ref would like to made aware of things they aren't seeing. But suggesting that something you are seieng should be refereed differently isn't so appropriate at half time. Leave that to after.

 

[peperami]

It's entirely possible the To3 had a chat amongst themselves and decided that they needed a course correction. I've done that before with ARs. They'll often see things in the game that I'm not.

Whenever I have been an AR, I have always been asked at half time by the referee with my colleague whether we had anything that the referee needed to know or be aware of. I have consiously avoided anything that sounds like you arent refrereeing X correctly. We may have said look at the backline being up quick, or that X is striggling in the scrum.

I have always avoided the coaches at all levels but u15, but then it tends to be a do you need any explanation from me to pass on to the boys.

When I have been observed/assessed if I have spoken to them at half time its never been about my game.

As a MO I wouldnt want to change anything unless it was safety issue.