Was this right?

[Taff]

Bit of a local derby today; 2 good 2nds teams played overall in reasonably good spirit but with certainly no love lost between the 2 sides.

In the first half, a White player goes down (I didn't see what caused it) and is sitting up but I suspect he's had a knock to the head. He says "I'm fine. Can you just give me a few seconds Ref"? No problem. He then asks if he wanted to, could he go off for a few minutes and come back on? They didn't have any subs. I said that was OK. I'm not sure that was the correct thing to do in law, but it felt right. As it happened he didn't go off and finished the game.

In the second half, a Yellow player gets hurt at a tackle. At first I assumed it was cramp, but the coach shook his head and just points to his calf. To be honest, I couldn't see anything wrong with his calf, but he was obviously in a pretty bad way and had to be carried off in agony. Amazingly, about 10 minutes later he wants to come back on. I didn't let him - as far as I was concerned he had gone off injured - and players who have gone off injured can't come back on. I admit I hadn't asked the coach if he was going off injured, I just assumed it because he was being carried off with an ice pack strapped to his leg.

While I was explaining why he couldn't come back on, he said "You were happy with their player coming back on earlier. What's the bloody difference?"

I'm happy that Yellow couldn't come back on, but the thing is, was I right to tell the White player he could go off for a few minutes if he wanted to? If he had gone off to clear his head, wasn't he effectively going off injured as well? I think my logic was that where head injuries are concerned, if he wanted a break, he could have it. :chin:

 

[L'irlandais]

Hi Taff,
I may well get shot down in flames for having an opinion on this.

But for me, Law 3 says it's your call, not the coach's.
[laws]3.11 Player wishing to rejoin the match
(b) A player who leaves a match because of injury or any other reason must not rejoin the match until the referee permits the player to return. The referee must not let a player rejoin a match until the ball is dead.[/laws]

Inconsistent on your part? maybe, but still your decision, and your's alone to make.

..., he said "You were happy with their player coming back on earlier. What's the bloody difference?"...

Possible answer "The difference is earlier I said okay, and in this case I'm saying it's NOT okay."

 

[Taff]

I may well get shot down in flames for having an opinion on this.

Fire away; I've come here for an opinion. :biggrin:

.. But for me, Law 3 says it's your call, not the coach's.

[laws]3.11 Player wishing to rejoin the match
(b) A player who leaves a match because of injury or any other reason must not rejoin the match until the referee permits the player to return. The referee must not let a player rejoin a match until the ball is dead.[/laws]

I accept I have the final say, but lets be blunt, it's a damn sight easier when the coach agrees with you. The last thing you want is for me to say "I don't like the look of this. I think he should go off" only to have the coach say "He's fine. He'll play on" ... especially as I have sod all medical experience.

.....Inconsistent on your part? maybe, but still your decision, and your's alone to make.Possible answer "The difference is earlier I said okay, and in this case I'm saying it's NOT okay."

I'm happy an injured player cannot come back onto the FoP, but what it boils down to is can a player opt to take say a 5 minute break from the game?

 

[Waspsfan]

For a head injury assessment? Of course he can - and it should be encouraged / enforced.

Can a player in general take five minutes off the pitch. Well if a replacement doesn't come on I would say yes.

 

[Browner]

Ignoring interchanges etc .........If a player has had a knock and wishes to leave the FOP to recover, to then rejoin once he's done so, presumably his team are continuing with 14, what's the issue?

If the player was so injured that his return makes it dangerous for him, then that's a different assessment decision, he should be allowed.

 

[Ronald]

Coming at this from a different angle...was there any medical personnel at the game? In South Africa I cannot start a game, whether club or schoolboy, without certain medical equipment and a trained medic being next to the field. These medics are appointed by the home team, and if I was the ref in Taff's match, they would guide me. If they said the player received a knock to the head and they want to check him next to the field, he goes, don't care what the player or the coach has to say. If medics clear him, he can return.
Second instance, injured player leaves the field for treatment and is not replaced, I will allow him back if the medics are satisfied that he can return.

 

[Taff]

For a head injury assessment? Of course he can - and it should be encouraged / enforced.

Don't forget this was a 2nds game. I thought head injury assessments were for elite games only - where a medically qualified person was available.

... Can a player in general take five minutes off the pitch. Well if a replacement doesn't come on I would say yes.

.. If a player has had a knock and wishes to leave the FOP to recover, to then rejoin once he's done so, presumably his team are continuing with 14, what's the issue?

So you reckon I should have allowed the Yellow player back on. Not picking a fight here - just checking what others would have done.

Coming at this from a different angle...was there any medical personnel at the game? In South Africa I cannot start a game, whether club or schoolboy, without certain medical equipment and a trained medic being next to the field. These medics are appointed by the home team ... If they said the player received a knock to the head and they want to check him next to the field, he goes, don't care what the player or the coach has to say. If medics clear him, he can return.

Presumably provided he hasn't been replaced for injury. I've asked about the minimum requirement for medical personnel / equipment before; but I'm note sure I ever got a straight answer.

 

[winchesterref]

I can't see why a player can't leave the field to recover without being replaced, then return. No changes have been made. Your calls make sense to me.

 

[Mat 04]

Taff,

Here is my opinion on it.

1) We do not use the concussion assessment thing here in Wales below regional level.

2) In my opinion and with the above in mind, if a player has a bump to the head that is bad enough that he feels he needs to leave the field to collect himself, he shouldn't be allowed to return.

3) Unless I have missed a law change, if the yellow player who went off with a leg injury was replaced then he is not allowed back on. If he was not replaced, ie they played a man down for the duration of his absence, then he should be allowed to return providing you are satisfied as per law 3.9. If he was replaced then too bad for him.

 

[ChrisR]

If a player leaving the pitch has not been replaced he may return at a 'dead ball' and as allowed by the referee. No problem if he needs to respond to a 'call of nature' or some non-medical issue.

In your two cases there are medical issues.

White player: You suspected a knock on the head? Then he goes off and gets assessed by a qualified physio and doesn't return unless cleared. It gets tricky if they don't have a qualified person and that is why you need to get trained on the assessment protol.

The yellow player: If he wasn't replaced (and not a blood injury) then he is allowed to return if you are convinced that he is fit to do so.

 

[ChrisR]

I should add that in the case of the White player that he can have a temporary replacement while he is being assessed.

 

[Mat 04]

If a player leaving the pitch has not been replaced he may return at a 'dead ball' and as allowed by the referee. No problem if he needs to respond to a 'call of nature' or some non-medical issue.

In your two cases there are medical issues.

White player: You suspected a knock on the head? Then he goes off and gets assessed by a qualified physio and doesn't return unless cleared. It gets tricky if they don't have a qualified person and that is why you need to get trained on the assessment protol.

The yellow player: If he wasn't replaced (and not a blood injury) then he is allowed to return if you are convinced that he is fit to do so.

I should add that in the case of the White player that he can have a temporary replacement while he is being assessed.

As previously stated, these procedures are not in force in Wales.

 

[matty1194]

You suspected a knock on the head? that is why you need to get trained on the assessment protocol..

My bold/underline.

For me I am not getting involved in any assessment of a player who has suspected concussion, I do not know all the players in the leagues and I dont want too, therefore I dont know if the questions I would potentially have to ask a player with a suspected concussion if as you described I led the conversation would produce the suitable answers.

We have been told here in Scotland that if you suspect a player has recieved a knock to the head then stop the game, get his coach/physio (from either team if one doesnt have there own) to check the player, my requirement is to ask the coach/physio, "Are you happy for this player to continue?"

If there is any umming or ahhing about him continuing then he is off, that final call is mine.

If the coach isnt happy that I have made the decision to not allow his player to continue then fine, Im big and stupid enough to take it on the chin but I know I have the backing of the Society/Competition Organizers in that respect.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Team yesterday had a player with a knock to head.

Team's physio checked him out. I let him get on with it. I approached after a minute or two and the player still had a 20' stare in a 10' room.

They stood him up on his Bambi legs and off he went. Never got involved other than to confirm he was off for the duration. For my part great to see teams taking this seriously. Player's dad is Head Coach which can make for an interesting set of circumstances.

Hopefully he will be back fit and well after the requisite period of rehabilitation.

 

[Taff]

... The yellow player: If he wasn't replaced (and not a blood injury) then he is allowed to return if you are convinced that he is fit to do so.

Then I made a mistake. I suppose next time I should make it clear when a player goes off. Given the fuss he made when being taken off I just never thought he'd be coming back on.

As a humorous aside, when he came back on I told him if he'd been tactically subbed (not replaced for injury) he could have come back on to replace a player with a "bleeding or open wound". "But I did go off for blood" he said showing me a little scratch on his right leg. The injury was to his left leg. :biggrin:

 

[Browner]

Taff,

2) if a player has a bump to the head that is bad enough that he feels he needs to leave the field to collect himself, he shouldn't be allowed to return.

.

It didn't sound as if that was established.

A Player can get a ' bump' on the nose/cheek/eye/chin/ear and need a bit of recovery time without having been concussed, so I don't think its an automatic exclusion from rejoining.

 

[SimonSmith]

I should add that in the case of the White player that he can have a temporary replacement while he is being assessed.

Not in America he can't

 

[beckett50]

Forget LotG.

What we are dealing with here is player SAFETY.

If you deemed that the player with the head injury needed a few minutes to compose himself then good on you. Yellow player went off with a damaged calf and therefore was replaced due to injury - ergo no re-admission to the playing enclosure.

Where there are physios etc. in attendance I always ask the physic if they are OK for the player to continue. They know them better than me, and are better placed to judge. In the case of a head knock I'll still keep an eye on the player just in case.

 

[ChrisR]

Not in America he can't

Then I stand corrected, Simon. I'll check with our youth SRO to see if they have a different protocol. Seems to me that it would be smart to consider it like a blood sub to encourage a proper evaluation without the urgency to get him back on the field.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I had an interesting one yesterday, green winning but yellow staging a come back with a couple of tries and 10 minutes to go. Another period of yellow pressure and penalty advantage in 22. Nothing happening but so I come back for the penalty.
Green screaming sir sir head injury.
Ok I say and walk up. To man holding his head.
Are you ok? Give me a minute.
No I'm concerned you may be concussed and will have to go off.
It's ok sir I'm ok let's play on!
Yellow tapped and scored again.
Justice.