[Law] Weekly whistle

Drift


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Anthony

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The give-away is the ref's movement, back towards the off-side line for 9. If it had been for a dangerous tackle he would have been moving towards where the tackle occurred
 

DocY


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What a great idea!

IMO, it has to be 9 white offside - as Anthony points out, the ref's movement is a bit of a giveaway.
 

Staffs_Ref

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I can understand the explanation given in the clip, but it isn't the decision I would have given. I would have gone with an attacking scrum for the knock-on. If you are going to award a PK every time something like that happens then there aren't going to be many knock-ons that don't result in a PK.
 

Christy


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H staffs.
For me ref did good .
Blatant knock on , advantage given ( blue are 5 meters from red try line )
Turnover was always a possibility .
Reds held on to ball ( they new what they were doing )
Reds lucky not to get yellow card .

Had knock on not occured & they did not hold on to ball
Blue could of been done for in at side .

Reason why i like this game so much .
Is good law knowledge for a ref is a requirement .
But to have game knowledge is a master piece.
 

Staffs_Ref

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H staffs.
For me ref did good .
Blatant knock on , advantage given ( blue are 5 meters from red try line )
Turnover was always a possibility .
Reds held on to ball ( they new what they were doing )
Reds lucky not to get yellow card .

Had knock on not occured & they did not hold on to ball
Blue could of been done for in at side .

Reason why i like this game so much .
Is good law knowledge for a ref is a requirement .
But to have game knowledge is a master piece.
I've watched it again and revised my opinion ... Blue 10 was closer to the action at the time of the knock-on than I originally thought he was, so yes, Red did take the action to cynically prevent loss of possession.
 

didds

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I still think Staffs is originally correct.

The player that knocks on cannot be definition be offside. the law doesn't require a player that knocks on to subsequently NOT play the ball. Having regained the ball he is on his feet PDQ and blue ten at best has rested a hand on his back before being off his hands - he eventually ends up going to ground with support already winning the ruck

KO - scrum is my call.

I think that's a stuff up by the ref - happy to be better educated with reference to law references.

If the ref was correct then as staffs says above be prepared for a lot of PKs going forward.

didds
 

didds

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Red did take the action to cynically prevent loss of possession.

but the laws do not prevent him from doing so in his situation.

if red 15 knocks on a catch, regains possession and kicks it into touch rather than allow the closing chasing blue 11 access - what's the difference? 15 has cynically prevented blue 11 from gaining possession.

didds
 

DocY


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but the laws do not prevent him from doing so in his situation.

if red 15 knocks on a catch, regains possession and kicks it into touch rather than allow the closing chasing blue 11 access - what's the difference? 15 has cynically prevented blue 11 from gaining possession.

didds

I guess it's where you stop playing advantage. Generally if a player has knocked on and regained possession, you're not going to play advantage and wait for him to infringe (again).

I'm on the fence with the clip and wouldn't have a problem with either call. First viewing, I thought KO, no advantage coming; bit if the referee is slightly slower to blow for the knock on, he might (and obviously did) see the second offence and thought advantage could be played until then.
 

DocY


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if red 15 knocks on a catch, regains possession and kicks it into touch rather than allow the closing chasing blue 11 access - what's the difference? 15 has cynically prevented blue 11 from gaining possession.

I think a closer analogy would be 15 deliberately throwing the ball into touch. I think there could be a case for a penalty if he did that.
 

Staffs_Ref

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I'm on the fence with the clip and wouldn't have a problem with either call. First viewing, I thought KO, no advantage coming; bit if the referee is slightly slower to blow for the knock on, he might (and obviously did) see the second offence and thought advantage could be played until then.
Totally understand that. Whenever I view video clips like this I try to make a judgement on my first viewing in real time, as that most closely replicates what I would have to do in a real match scenario. I am unlikely to ever have the luxury of a TMO and generally don't have ARs as part of a team of three either. I think it is highly likely that I would have called the scrum for the knock on in real life. With the benefit of replays it seems clear that there is a case for a PK against Red as Blue 10 is lawfully trying to gain possession of the ball and is (unlawfully) prevented from doing so by Red, but a call either way by the referee would be perfectly understandable.
 

didds

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I think a closer analogy would be 15 deliberately throwing the ball into touch. I think there could be a case for a penalty if he did that.

well yes, because that IS a PK offense.

What PK offense did the knocking on player do? He is on his feet by the time blue 10 makes any realistic attempt to get near the ball (which he doesn't I reckon - he look s like he is going to attempt a barrel roll to flip the blue player onto his back)

didds
 

Staffs_Ref

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What PK offense did the knocking on player do?

didds
If nothing else, I think he would be guilty under Law 10. Having been called for an infringement he is then cynically obstructing Blue 10 from taking advantage.
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]'Foul play [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, r[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]epeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.'[/FONT]
 

DocY


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but there's the rub - what second offence?

didds

Holding on the ground, I think. It might have been harsh - was he trying to get back to his feet immediately, or was he preventing white legitimately taking the ball on the ground?

To be honest, after re-watching it a few times I'm not sure he should have been penalised.

As I'm seeing it (ignoring any KO): red dives on a loose ball; white grabs him on the ground (falling on a man on the ground?), red tries to get back to his feet with white holding on, falls down, white releases, ball recycled.

Surely if he'd just given the KO we wouldn't even be discussing it!
 
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DocY


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If nothing else, I think he would be guilty under Law 10. Having been called for an infringement he is then cynically obstructing Blue 10 from taking advantage.
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]'Foul play [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, r[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]epeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.'[/FONT]

I don't really like this argument. It sounds to me as if preventing an opponent gaining advantage is necessarily cynical, which it isn't. Unless I've misunderstood what you mean.
 

Staffs_Ref

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I don't really like this argument. It sounds to me as if preventing an opponent gaining advantage is necessarily cynical, which it isn't. Unless I've misunderstood what you mean.
Not necessarily cynical in every instance, but I think you could argue that it was cynical in this situation and at this level of match where the defender knows that loss of possession will almost certainly result in a try against his team.
 

ChrisR

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If nothing else, I think he would be guilty under Law 10. Having been called for an infringement he is then cynically obstructing Blue 10 from taking advantage.
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]'Foul play [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, r[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]epeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.'[/FONT]

..... and this is how rugby myths get started:

After a knock-on the offender must let the opponents play the ball.
 
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