When did this come in?

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Good question.

Dropping your own player at a LO is a FK offence. See 19.10(g)

19.10(g) Lowering a Player. Players who support a jumping team-mate must lower that player to the ground as soon as the ball has been won by a player of either team.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line



The Beast. Dangerous Play?

1] 19.10 applies only to line outs

2] Dangerous .... Yes many reasons ..including studs at face height of arriving players , and a tackling player wouldn't be allowed to do the same thing

which is kinda back to my OP

I agree with Crossref #5, "unintended consequence"

So.........
votes please

Is the game better with "lifting in open play" to 'protect' catchers
a] Yes
b] No
?
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,811
Post Likes
3,149
I suspect someone nailed this earlier on the thread.. If there are opposition players close by it prevents them challenging for the ball so It's a form of obstruction.

On practice though you couldn't ping it, it's an accepted part of the game.
 

Taff


Referees in Wales
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
6,942
Post Likes
383
[Lifting by team mates] ...also avoids the clash of two players running at each other.
Another fair point OB, but we accept 2 players running at each other and jumping for the ball in open play without question. Why are KOs / restarts and 22 DOs any different?

I suspect someone nailed this earlier on the thread.. If there are opposition players close by it prevents them challenging for the ball so It's a form of obstruction. On practice though you couldn't ping it, it's an accepted part of the game.
Exactly. In effect it's legal obstruction - the lifting team mates are doing something which effectively prevents the opposition from getting to the ball / ball carrier. Personally, I don't like it but as the laws stand there is nothing I can do about it.
 
Last edited:

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,103
Post Likes
2,364
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Hey...whatabout a catcher Lifted & then sat on the shoulders of x2 props who now trundle off towards the try line with the catcher off the ground still ..... & th4 'protected' from being stopped ? LOL

From this and other threads I genuinely believe you are Chopper under a different log in!
 

Davet

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,731
Post Likes
4
I would have no prolem with banning lifting throughout the game. Open play, or set peice.

It would make lineouts more competitive for a start.
 

Mike Whittaker


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,778
Post Likes
2
I would have no prolem with banning lifting throughout the game. Open play, or set peice.

It would make lineouts more competitive for a start.

Agree. Still have feeling that one day there will be a high profile incident which will have more parents scared for the safety of their young one in this dangerous game! (I am aware of youth restrictions - but the press and ignorant readers...)

And then we will ask what lifting contributed to the game?
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Another fair point OB, but we accept 2 players running at each other and jumping for the ball in open play without question. Why are KOs / restarts and 22 DOs any different?
You have accepted two of my three points. This one is less important, but it is the case that set plays are different in that they are pre-planned.

Exactly. In effect it's legal obstruction - the lifting team mates are doing something which effectively prevents the opposition from getting to the ball / ball carrier.
If they are in front of the catcher, they get penalised. Being on either side is not in itself illegal.

And then we will ask what lifting contributed to the game?
It made a big difference by cleaning up the lineout.
 

Shelflife


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
627
Post Likes
156
Ive no problem with lifting in the lineout, but really dont like this open play lifting, only for the sheer strength from the prop and the beast you could have a really nasty incident on your hands. this situation is magnafied when you have players incapable of retrieving the player when he tips trying it out.
 

Taff


Referees in Wales
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
6,942
Post Likes
383
You have accepted two of my three points. This one is less important, but it is the case that set plays are different in that they are pre-planned. If they are in front of the catcher, they get penalised. Being on either side is not in itself illegal.
I agree, but the effect on the opposition is exactly the same whether the lifters are in front, to the side or behind the player being lifted - ie while the lifted player is up in the air, in effect all the opposition are prevented / blocked from touching him, which leaves an unpleasant taste.

Ive no problem with lifting in the lineout, but really dont like this open play lifting, only for the sheer strength from the prop and the beast you could have a really nasty incident on your hands.
I think the vast majority of refs, players and supporters would agree with you Shelflife. As OB pointed out, allowing lifting (sorry supporting) in LO's have tidied them up no end, and lets be blunt you very very rarely see a bad incident from lifting in the LO. If the Beast incident had happened in a game I was reffing, that would have seriously shaken me.
 

Mike Whittaker


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,778
Post Likes
2
Strange, but my recollection of ancient line outs is not one calling for them to be 'tidied up'! The shear athleticism of the individual leaping unassisted was a far better measure of individual ability than any human pyramid circus act rehearsed to the nth degree in the gym.

And do we really justify law changes on the grounds of tidying up!?! Heaven help us...

Safety is paramount - abolish lifting.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Strange, but my recollection of ancient line outs is not one calling for them to be 'tidied up'! The shear athleticism of the individual leaping unassisted was a far better measure of individual ability than any human pyramid circus act rehearsed to the nth degree in the gym.

And do we really justify law changes on the grounds of tidying up!?! Heaven help us...

Safety is paramount - abolish lifting.
The lineouts were a mess, with lots of hard-to-spot illegality going on. Lifting meant the lifters had to concentrate on safe lifting and had no free hands (or elbows). No longer can you hold down an opponent or dig him in the ribs as he tries to jump. "Tidying up" is a euphemism.

A friend of mine was at TCD back in the 50s, and played against the All Black when they were on tour. At the first lineout he took the ball easily. At the second lineout he felt an explosion in the pit of his stomach and dropped to the ground gasping. An AB was standing over him shouting, "Don't you do that again!", so for some strange reason he said "Sorry!".
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Hey...whatabout a catcher Lifted & then sat on the shoulders of x2 props who now trundle off towards the try line with the catcher off the ground still ..... & th4 'protected' from being stopped ? LOL

surely this will be endorsed by the "if it's not illegal, then its a perfectly good tactic" brigade ??!! :confused:
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Mike Whittaker
Strange, but my recollection of ancient line outs is not one calling for them to be 'tidied up'! The shear athleticism of the individual leaping unassisted was a far better measure of individual ability than any human pyramid circus act rehearsed to the nth degree in the gym.

And do we really justify law changes on the grounds of tidying up!?! Heaven help us...
Safety is paramount - abolish lifting.


The lineouts were a mess, with lots of hard-to-spot illegality going on. Lifting meant the lifters had to concentrate on safe lifting and had no free hands (or elbows). No longer can you hold down an opponent or dig him in the ribs as he tries to jump. "Tidying up" is a euphemism.


Re: Mike Whittakers recommendation.
When lifting started, IMO it did "tidy up" the plethora of lineout offences & yes it did provide generally cleaner possession, but over the years it's clear that lifting has got higher & higher with lower & lower gripping of the jumper ..... i suspect we are heading towards the day when a player is launched into the air & then balanced on the hands of the lifter [acrobat style] !

doubtless some people will say .. great skill-leave alone , other will say dangerous ..... & all opinions will float around until the next serious injury when it will all be outlawed again.




and As with the majority of techniques
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Re: Mike Whittakers recommendation.
When lifting started, IMO it did "tidy up" the plethora of lineout offences & yes it did provide generally cleaner possession, but over the years it's clear that lifting has got higher & higher with lower & lower gripping of the jumper ..... i suspect we are heading towards the day when a player is launched into the air & then balanced on the hands of the lifter [acrobat style] !
Why hypothesize something that is so clearly illegal?

The position we have arrived at now has evolved fairly gradually, and so far the evidence is that it is safe unless people do something silly - and generally speaking they don't.
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Why hypothesize something that is so clearly illegal?

The position we have arrived at now has evolved fairly gradually, and so far the evidence is that it is safe unless people do something silly - and generally speaking they don't.

Yes OB.... I agree with the current position ..... however 'prediction' based on trend is one of the ways evolution is 'cashed in'.

Once upon a time the saddle roll didn't exist, now it does, some people are still scratching their head as to how it was allowed to evolve, when all law indicates it should never have arrived.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Yes OB.... I agree with the current position ..... however 'prediction' based on trend is one of the ways evolution is 'cashed in'.

Once upon a time the saddle roll didn't exist, now it does, some people are still scratching their head as to how it was allowed to evolve, when all law indicates it should never have arrived.
People are arguing about the legality of the saddle roll.
 

Mike Whittaker


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,778
Post Likes
2
Do love all those old anecdotes of how the game used to be back in the old days. Tales of activities in the mauls between local mining town games in the valleys of Wales - trampling to near death under the foot rushes of rampaging borders forwards - yorkshire miners rucking their way to new coal seams apparently! Yes they are all good an indeed probably many of them did happen, including line out forwards hitting their opponent at the first line to discourage them from jumping! Indeed I know well an ex Brigend No 8 who had to remind himself in his twilight career that such a practice was not good form in South of England L10 games.

Of course the reason that these activities took place was simply that the chances of being caught were low, if you were careful. Being watched by one pair of eyes and only at the very highest level by a camera that would tend to follow the ball!

Fortunately time has moved on and the role models of the game are now being watched by so many eyes that the chances of never being caught out are virtually zero - allegedly. And at the lower levels experience would suggest that the game is a lot cleaner than it is remembered as being. Not a bad thing, really?

On this basis I would stand by my view that the line out (and open play) would not be adverseley affected by a complete ban on lifting a player, and would like to see it trialled at a reasonable standard.

This is my personal view and I know others disagree but - that's life! :hap:
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Fortunately time has moved on and the role models of the game are now being watched by so many eyes that the chances of never being caught out are virtually zero - allegedly. And at the lower levels experience would suggest that the game is a lot cleaner than it is remembered as being. Not a bad thing, really?
Why is it cleaner at lower levels? Perhaps because of lifting? I don't think the "crowd" is a very significant factor judging by the inaccurate comments i hear at most games.
 

Mike Whittaker


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,778
Post Likes
2
Why is it cleaner at lower levels? Perhaps because of lifting? I don't think the "crowd" is a very significant factor judging by the inaccurate comments i hear at most games.

Thought your explanation for orderly scrums at grass roots level was sound, and agreed with you. Was simply applying similar thinking, which may or may not be valid, but I would like to see it tried. By 'many eyes' I certainly wasn't referring to the crowd!! It was the AR's and club videos etc... As we know the 'knowledgeabel crowd' that the media love to refer to, is a myth!! ;-)
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Good question.

Dropping your own player at a LO is a FK offence. See 19.10(g)

19.10(g) Lowering a Player. Players who support a jumping team-mate must lower that player to the ground as soon as the ball has been won by a player of either team.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line


Now have a look at The Beast. Dangerous Play? and tell me that doesn't send a shiver down your spine. It seems odd that a player can be sanctioned for dropping a team mate in a LO, but there isn't at least an equivalent sanction for doing exactly the same (or worse) in open play.

Without reopening the whole of this thread....,.......................

Here's an example of when it goes wrong. sharks v highlanders K/O receipt at 20-20
https://m.facebook.com/TheRugbyBanterPage?refsrc=http://rugbybanterpage.co.uk/facebook-feed/&_rdr

So, ..... Is this a RC for the player who dropped his teammate headfirst into the ground ? Argueably of Equal danger rating compared to Lifting tackle danger.
 
Last edited:
Top