When did this come in?

[Browner]

http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/03/30...beast-mode-with-incredible-lift#comment247862

Q? Why/when did lifting/supporting a catcher in open play become allowable? [& it seems to get protection of 10.4.

It invariably only happens at restarts , but why should it be limited to these?

Could it happen at any other stage of play...... ie kicking ping pong?

 

[Dixie]

From Rugbydump:

Question, can anyone explain why 'catchers' are allowed to be lifted off the ground and held in the air [and get protection ] in normal play?

I'm not convinced that LAW allows such protection ?

A better question would be: was there ever a law that prevented this from happening, or did previous generations just miss a trick?

The law that protects people in the air is as old as the hills - which is to say that I used to get pinged for it (unfairly in my view!) when I played back in the early 1980's. It currently says:

[LAWS]10.4(e): A player must not tackle an opponent whose feet are off the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

There is currently nothing in law that prevents a team mate hoisting a player off the ground. I doubt that there ever was. If that is correct, then:

a) it has been legal for ages to lift a non-ball-carrier in open play, but it is possible that for decades people never thought to do it
b) it has been illegal for ages to tackle a player whose feet are off the ground
c) it has been illegal for ages to impinge on players who are not in possession of the ball, so taking out the supporters has thus been illegal for ages.

Remember that everything is legal unless the LoTG disallows it. If you found a way to achieve it, when worrying about how to stop those huge Welsh backs it would be legal to dig a hole in the pitch for the ball carrier to fall into so you don't have to tackle them. It's always possible that the ploy would be banned by a law cahnge soon after it first happened, though.

 

[Browner]

Remember that everything is legal unless the LoTG disallows it. .

Hmmnn..........Really?

 

[Davet]

Pretty much, yes. Otherwise what's the point of the laws?

 

[crossref]

i think the lifting in open play started like this
- lifting became allowed in line outs
- people started to get knocked and fall from great height
- IRB started to get really serious about tackling people in the air and taking out supporters
- people thought: hmm, we could get that same protection in open play ...

it was an uninetended consequence, like so many in rugby.


One pf my favourites was
- IRB decide that giving away a PK in the opponents half isn't much of a deterrent, so people didn't care, so
- IRB change the Law so that lineout following a PK is given to the kicking team
- teams awarded a PK in their own half all now kick great distance to touch, retaining possession (expected)
- teams award a PK 10m from the opponents tryline think 'hmm.. you know a line out might work' and start to kick attacking PK into touch (unintended consequence)

So now we end up with the odd thing that most PKs are used to kick the ball off the field....

 

[Taff]

I accept that it's illegal to tackle both the lifted player and the lifters, but why are players being lifting in the first place?

Wasn't there a thread about this a month or so ago? IIRC the OPs opinion was that it was just a form of obstruction.

He may have a point, because I still don't understand what other benefit there is in lifting a team mate to catch the ball. After all, wait a tiny fraction of a second and gravity would bring the ball to them.

 

[Browner]

........... the OPs opinion was that it was just a form of obstruction.

He may have a point, because I still don't understand what other benefit there is in lifting a team mate to catch the ball.

After all, wait a tiny fraction of a second and gravity would bring the ball to them.

IMO the 'practice' was never intended to surface in open play.


Hey...whatabout a catcher Lifted & then sat on the shoulders of x2 props who now trundle off towards the try line with the catcher off the ground still ..... & th4 'protected' from being stopped ? LOL

 

[Ian_Cook]

The law that protects people in the air is as old as the hills - which is to say that I used to get pinged for it (unfairly in my view!) when I played back in the early 1980's.

I though it was only made illegal in 1996

[LAWS]Law 26 FOUL PLAY
(3) Misconduct, Dangerous Play

Note (v) The following actions constitute dangerous play:-

(c) If a player attempts to tackle a player who, when fielding a kick in open play, is off the ground jumping for the ball.[/LAWS]

Players didn't used to jump for the ball because in order to take a "Mark" they had to have at least one foot on the ground.

[LAWS]LAW 16. FAIR-CATCH
(a) A player makes a fair-catch when in his twenty-two meters area or in his In-goal, he having at least one foot on the ground, cleanly catches the ball direct from a kick by one of his opponents and, at the same time, he exclaims "Mark!"

(b) A free kick is awarded for a fair-catch.[/LAWS]

At one time, you could take a mark anywhere on the field, not just in the 22. Jumping for the ball would then make you liable to be tackled.

 

[OB..]

He may have a point, because I still don't understand what other benefit there is in lifting a team mate to catch the ball. After all, wait a tiny fraction of a second and gravity would bring the ball to them.

A running player can jump higher than a standing player. If you wait for the ball to come down, an opponent will get to it first (unless the kick was too long).

 

[OB..]

The law that protects people in the air is as old as the hills - which is to say that I used to get pinged for it (unfairly in my view!) when I played back in the early 1980's.

I though it was only made illegal in 1996

First made specifically illegal in 1991, but obviously could have been considered dangerous play before that.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

The tacklers could wise up and stand on their opponents side and wait for them to come down and clamp the ball

 

[Davet]

Resulting in a maul direct from a catch, unplayable, scrum down, catcher's ball.

 

[Taff]

A running player can jump higher than a standing player. If you wait for the ball to come down, an opponent will get to it first (unless the kick was too long).

It's a good point, but it does beg the question why didn't the catcher start from 10m back and take a running jump for it as well (when there's nothing stopping him) instead of relying on one or 2 stationary team mates to lift him?

The tacklers could wise up and stand on their opponents side and wait for them to come down and clamp the ball

Resulting in a maul direct from a catch, unplayable, scrum down, catcher's ball.

But as that unplayable maul is directly from a KO / restart / 22 DO (which is almost invariably the only time when the opposition lift a player to receive it) the ball is turned over - ie the kickers team get the throw in. Which is what I think Ctrainor was driving at.

 

[talbazar]

But as that unplayable maul is directly from a KO / restart / 22 DO (which is almost invariably the only time when the opposition lift a player to receive it) the ball is turned over - ie the kickers team get the throw in.

Well, actually, th LOTG states "except from a kick-off or a drop-out".. Which means that a restart after points were scored are not supposed to be covered there...
Hence the question: are you applying the law strictly here or do you consider kick-off and restart are the same in this situation?

 

[Taff]

Well, actually, th LOTG states "except from a kick-off or a drop-out".. Which means that a restart after points were scored are not supposed to be covered there... Hence the question: are you applying the law strictly here or do you consider kick-off and restart are the same in this situation?

I've never heard of a difference between whether points were scored or not.

For maul purposes, IMO a restart at the centre after a try was scored, is treated exactly the same as a 22 DO after the ball was put in goal by the attacking side and made dead.

 

[Dixie]

Well, actually, th LOTG states "except from a kick-off or a drop-out".. Which means that a restart after points were scored are not supposed to be covered there...
Hence the question: are you applying the law strictly here or do you consider kick-off and restart are the same in this situation?

They are to be treated as one and the same. The LoTG is flawed, in that law 13 defines a difference between restarts and kicks-off, but then ignores that difference. If you apply the law literally, there is no requirement for the opposition to stand behind the 10m line at a restart (13.4 only applies at a kick-off) nor for the kicker's team to be behind the ball as it is kicked (13.3. doesn't apply to a restart). The kick need not travel 10m (13.5, 6 and 7 don't apply to a restart).

If you want to progress, I don't recommend the literalist approach.

 

[OB..]

It's a good point, but it does beg the question why didn't the catcher start from 10m back and take a running jump for it as well (when there's nothing stopping him) instead of relying on one or 2 stationary team mates to lift him?

Because he can get higher when being lifted, and there is no timing problem. It also avoids the clash of two players running at each other.

 

[Shelflife]

If the prop drops him and he lands on his head, Do you card the prop for dangerous play (not bringing him down safely) ?

 

[Taff]

If the prop drops him and he lands on his head, Do you card the prop for dangerous play (not bringing him down safely) ?

Good question.

Dropping your own player at a LO is a FK offence. See 19.10(g)

19.10(g) Lowering a Player. Players who support a jumping team-mate must lower that player to the ground as soon as the ball has been won by a player of either team.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Now have a look at The Beast. Dangerous Play? and tell me that doesn't send a shiver down your spine. It seems odd that a player can be sanctioned for dropping a team mate in a LO, but there isn't at least an equivalent sanction for doing exactly the same (or worse) in open play.

 

[Browner]

A running player can jump higher than a standing player. If you wait for the ball to come down, an opponent will get to it first (unless the kick was too long).

Ahem...... as Samoa have just ably demonstrated 21-0 ...... & England 7's haven't touched the ball yet !