[In-goal] When does advantage end

[ChrisR]

This theoretical question is a child of "Advantage Question".

You are playing PK advantage to Red 5m from Blue's goal.

a. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line and gets free into goal. Before he grounds the ball he loses control and knocks on. What is your call?

b. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line and gets free into goal. Before he grounds the ball he turns toward the posts but steps on the dead-ball line. What is your call?

c. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line but knocks on into goal. What is your call?

d. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line but knocks on before the the goal line and the ball doesn't go into goal. What is your call?

Some people don't like theoretical questions but I pose these just to see where the decision points are.

 

[SimonSmith]

I would prefer to see live, but:
a) scrum. Predicated on the fact that he wasn't under pressure and was caused to lose the ball
b) 22. See above for caveats.
c) scrum, probably. But I wouldn't fault a referee for coming back to the PK. Entirely depends on the situation in how he loses the ball.
d) scrum, maybe.

the problem with these, as laid out, is that's it difficult to state without knowing what's going on. Did he have a free run through the D line, or was it him having to avoid defenders in proximity that cause the problem? 'Breaking clear of' doesn't tell a whole picture - I can get through a line with no one within 5m of me; equally I can burst through under pressure, through two tacklers. Very different scenario

 

[crossref]

Have you already shouted 'advantage over' ?
- If you have, then advantage was over. Bad luck.
- If you haven't, then advantage wasn't over, and as it turned out advatage wasn't gained - so come back for the PK

this is a pretty important point. Even if someone is running in unopposed and loses the ball in a stupid grandstand swallow-dive --- you need to have shouted 'advantage over' BEFORE he drops it - Not after.

you can't blow your whistle and declare that advantage was, actually, already over, but you didn't say.

 

[ChrisR]

Have you already shouted 'advantage over' ?
- If you have, then advantage was over. Bad luck.
- If you haven't, then advantage wasn't over, and as it turned out advatage wasn't gained - so come back for the PK

this is a pretty important point. Even if someone is running in unopposed and loses the ball in a stupid grandstand swallow-dive --- you need to have shouted 'advantage over' BEFORE he drops it - Not after.

you can't blow your whistle and declare that advantage was, actually, already over, but you didn't say.

See the other thread. No requirement in law to declare advantage start or over. Advantage should be governed by the actions of the players not the words of the referee. You can play advantage and end without a word. Not recomended.

Would you be more embarrassed if you had to admit "Advantage ended back there but I forgot to tell you" or to say "I forgot to tell you advantage ended so it didn't and we have to go all the way back to that knock-on at the other end of the pitch".

 

[OB..]

See the other thread. No requirement in law to declare advantage start or over. Advantage should be governed by the actions of the players not the words of the referee. You can play advantage and end without a word. Not recomended.

Indeed not. I criticise referees who forget, because it is what players are entitled to expect.

Would you be more embarrassed if you had to admit "Advantage ended back there but I forgot to tell you" or to say "I forgot to tell you advantage ended so it didn't and we have to go all the way back to that knock-on at the other end of the pitch".

Players are taught to play to the whistle, so if you forget to call advantage over, they play on. If a team has gained the distance of your second example, it is obvious to all and sundry that advantage is over. Going back simply because you forgot to say so would be even worse than forgetting.

 

[crossref]

I think we all agree 100% that you should call advantage over when it is.

There is a scenario of what happens if you forget to say advantage over.. And then something tricky happens, and then what's the best way to recover from your error. This is a whole new question, really, and it will probably depend on the circumstances. In general my view is that when referee makes manifest error it generally works best to admit it, and then work out the fairest/safest way to continue.

But now I think we are really straying away from the point of your questions

 

[chbg]

For me Advantage is over in situations (a) and (b) when the opposition are unable to / do not influence the attacker's options. If they are still effectively trying to prevent the score, and do so, then Advantage was not gained. If there is no effective opposition, then I have probably decided that Advantage has been gained and attackers' errors thereafter are their own fault. (a) is defenders' scrum 5; (b) is 22 DO.

Same sort of decision for (c) and (d): did defensive line contribute to attacker's KO? As described, very probably, so back to PK. (Attackers can always elect to take the PK as a scrum.)

Advantage ends when the referee determines that it is: he/she then starts to call "Advantage over". That communication starts AFTER Advantage is over. So any infringement as "Adv..." is spoken is a new situation; bad luck! If non-offending defenders kick when not under pressure, then that is very likely Advantage Over for me once the ball has been firmly kicked, regardless of where the ball goes thereafter (depending on position of kicker in relation to offence, but if he has lost a lot of ground then we've probably already gone back to the offence anyway). In attack, the convention is that non-offenders are allowed two bites at the score, and, to be honest, I would probably wait to see if a short kick for touch went into touch or touch-in-goal before deciding on Advantage.

 

[Ian_Cook]

This theoretical question is a child of "Advantage Question".

You are playing PK advantage to Red 5m from Blue's goal.

In all cases of PK advantage, I need to see a considerable territorial advantage before I would call "advantage over". Its hard to get that when the defending team's infringement (for which you are playing advantage) takes place only 5m from the goal line. Pretty much any defending team's PK infringement close to the goal line is going to require them to actually score or I would be coming back for the PK.

This is different with scrum advantage where a tactical advantage is sufficient, and therefore you answer is going to be different for different situations.

What is also really important is how quickly you can vocalise your thoughts, which leads to....

Have you already shouted 'advantage over' ?
- If you have, then advantage was over. Bad luck.
- If you haven't, then advantage wasn't over, and as it turned out advatage wasn't gained - so come back for the PK

this is a pretty important point. Even if someone is running in unopposed and loses the ball in a stupid grandstand swallow-dive --- you need to have shouted 'advantage over' BEFORE he drops it - Not after.

you can't blow your whistle and declare that advantage was, actually, already over, but you didn't say.

THIS!

IMO, from the player's standpoint, advantage is over when the referee SAYS its over. This is what the players will expect, and it isn't something you are going to have to sell.

If you haven't said advantage over, the team who had the advantage is going feel aggrieved about that. Do it too many times, and they will start to lose faith in your decisions. If you are unlucky enough that the team with the advantage infringes after you were thinking advantage over, but before you had a chance to say it, you should button your lip. Doing anything else is a difficult sell.

ETA: I'm not talking about forgetting, I'm talking about those rare situations where things happen so quickly, you don't have time to vocalise.

(shit, I'm agreeing with crossref)

 

[DocY]

IMO, from the player's standpoint, advantage is over when the referee SAYS its over. This is what the players will expect, and it isn't something you are going to have to sell.

Yeah, even though it doesn't say so in law, this is what's expected and if you don't do it you're just undermining yourself. Occasionally you can get away with it when it's really obvious advantage is over (though that's not an excuse), but in any case when it's at all debatable you need to have called 'advantage over' to not go back for the penalty.

With that in mind, in situations C and D there's no way I'd have called advantage over, so back for the PK.

In A or B I might have done, though probably not since I'd not expect shouting it to have any effect on the game (they'd have to be swanning around in in goal for a while before I did call AO). If I'd done so, we're looking at a 5m scrum, otherwise back for the PK, but I'd completely understand the referee saying "you're free to touch down, that's tactical advantage and your own fault if you screw it up" and calling AO quickly.

 

[Pegleg]

Crossing the line or having a clear unopposed run in is advantage over for me. " is it reasonable to expect the player to score in this situation?" if it is then he's got advantage.

Regardign not calling it over. There will be RARE occasions when it is just not possible to call it. They will be very rare. Also, as Ian says there will be "forget" scenarios. So lets say the attacker has crossed the line in full control you forget to call advantage over and are raising the whistle to your lips, preparing to award the inevitable try. The player inexplicably drops the ball. Here you can sell the, "Knock on scrum 5 defending ball" call. With a "all you had to do is put the ball down" comment. But dont' overdo it. The players ware not going to be tolerant for too long.

I guess I'm saying if it is C & O that advantage was over then you can sell it. If it is borderline advantage was not over as you did not say it was.

 

[FlipFlop]

This is why, if a player crosses the line untouched, I will always call advantage over. They have their opportunity to score. If they touch the deadball line, or pass it around and drop it, or try a show boat dive and drop it, then more fool them. They will learn from their mates to take the points.

So in the examples - would have call advantage over in a & b, but not in c & d. So coming back for the PK in c & d, but not a & b.

 

[Dickie E]

In all cases of PK advantage, I need to see a considerable territorial advantage before I would call "advantage over". Its hard to get that when the defending team's infringement (for which you are playing advantage) takes place only 5m from the goal line. Pretty much any defending team's PK infringement close to the goal line is going to require them to actually score or I would be coming back for the PK.

This ^^^

 

[Dickie E]

This is why, if a player crosses the line untouched, I will always call advantage over. They have their opportunity to score. If they touch the deadball line, or pass it around and drop it, or try a show boat dive and drop it, then more fool them. They will learn from their mates to take the points.

So in the examples - would have call advantage over in a & b, but not in c & d. So coming back for the PK in c & d, but not a & b.

This too ^^^

 

[Fatboy_Ginge]

a. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line and gets free into goal. Before he grounds the ball he loses control and knocks on. What is your call?

Scrum 5 Blue throw in.

b. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line and gets free into goal. Before he grounds the ball he turns toward the posts but steps on the dead-ball line. What is your call?

22 Drop out

c. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line but knocks on into goal. What is your call?

Depends on various circumstances but probably scrum 5 Blue throw in.

d. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line but knocks on before the the goal line and the ball doesn't go into goal. What is your call?

As above, depends on the manner of the knock on. If it's Reds fault then any advantage to be played, if not scrum 5 Blue put in. If it's a Blue player playing Red from an offside we go back to the penalty and probably a YC for the Blue player.

As always though it's sooo dependent on context within the match.

 

[crossref]

a. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line and gets free into goal. Before he grounds the ball he loses control and knocks on. What is your call?

Scrum 5 Blue throw in.

So, you were playing advantage to red..

at what moment, exactly, did you call 'advantage over' ?

 

[Dickie E]

a. Red ball carrier breaks the defensive line and gets free into goal. Before he grounds the ball he loses control and knocks on. What is your call?

Scrum 5 Blue throw in.

assuming, of course, that Blue hasn't swooped on the ball and raced 100 metres to score at other end.

 

[Pegleg]

This is why, if a player crosses the line untouched, I will always call advantage over. They have their opportunity to score.

Even in a maul being driven into in-goal scenario? It's that clear cut? "Always" is a "paint yourself into a corner word".

 

[ChrisR]

So, you were playing advantage to red..

at what moment, exactly, did you call 'advantage over' ?

crossref, this is a chicken & egg question.

What you are saying is that advantage isn't over until you get the words out. In the general run of play that is reasonable.

However, in rapid fire events such as described here (crossing into goal and immediately knocking on) the conditions that terminate advantage will have come and gone before you get a word out. I think you are wrong, in this instance, to pin advantage over to your ability to react.

 

[DocY]

However, in rapid fire events such as described here (crossing into goal and immediately knocking on) the conditions that terminate advantage will have come and gone before you get a word out. I think you are wrong, in this instance, to pin advantage over to your ability to react.

I still think you'll have trouble selling this, unless it's very well understood that crossing the line signals advantage over by all involved (it might be in the states, but isn't this side of the pond).

 

[crossref]

crossref, this is a chicken & egg question.

What you are saying is that advantage isn't over until you get the words out. In the general run of play that is reasonable.

However, in rapid fire events such as described here (crossing into goal and immediately knocking on) the conditions that terminate advantage will have come and gone before you get a word out. I think you are wrong, in this instance, to pin advantage over to your ability to react.

No. I think I it is clear : (apart from very weird events, like swallowing a fly) if I haven't said advantage over, then advantage is still being played.