When is a knock on not a knock on

belladonna

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Anyone watch Exeter v Sale the other night?

There seemed to be several occasions where eg white would slap/rip at the ball being carried by black, and black would cough it up, resulting in a scrum advantage to white.

Doesn't this conflict with Law 11.5 (b)?

The ball is not knocked-on, and play continues, if:

A player rips or knocks the ball from an opponent and the ball goes forward from the opponent’s hand or arm.
 

crossref


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11.2 It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward.
11.5.b The ball is not knocked-on, and play continues if player rips or knocks the ball from an opponent and the ball goes forward from the opponent’s hand or arm.


the difference between those two is quite subtle ... it's the difference between "makes contact" and "knocks" (in the context of making a tackle)
 

Camquin

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I read those as:

Black is the ball carrier, white slaps at it, and it goes towards the dead ball line that white are attacking: knock on black ball.
Black is the ball carrier, white slaps at it, and it goes towards the dead ball line that black are attacking, no knock on, ripped backwards - even if it comes off black.
 

crossref


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Yes. But if white attempts the tackle, and instead of slapping simply makes contact with the ball which comes loose then *both* those scenarios become a knock on, scrum black and white respectively

And I think the difference between the slap and the just made contact can be quite subtle
 

buff


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I read it as
Red is defending white. Red is behind white facing the red goal line. He hits the ball in the tackle, or directly targets the ball which goes towards the red goal line. Knock on by white
Red is defending white. Red is facing the white goal line and rips the ball off white towards the red goal line. No knock on
 

crossref


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I read it as
Red is defending white. Red is behind white facing the red goal line. He hits the ball in the tackle, or directly targets the ball which goes towards the red goal line. Knock on by white

Those are two different cases

If red deliberately targets the ball and knocks it out (towards own goal line) no knock on it's play on (11.5.b)

If red attempts a tackle and just happens to knock the ball out (toward red goal line) it's a knock on by white (some people call this a loose carry by white) (11.2)

It can be hard to tell exactly what red did (as we are required to judge intention as well as outcome)
 
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