When Is the ball in touch?

DocP


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It did make me wonder what they were being coached in terms of game play. Tap and go on a 5m pen uphill to get tackled within 10m, I can't see the logic in it and I was prepping for a kick to touch. Was madness. No decent though, so that was a bonus
 

Jz558


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When my sons started playing at their secondary school years ago the younger age groups were banned from kicking from hand during open play to encourage better handling skills. They have both since left but having refereed an U14 game there last Saturday I was reminded of how much space there is on a full size pitch and how they like to use all of it!
 

didds

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It did make me wonder what they were being coached in terms of game play. Tap and go on a 5m pen uphill to get tackled within 10m, I can't see the logic in it and I was prepping for a kick to touch. Was madness. No decent though, so that was a bonus
At younger youth levels it may simply be that they are incapable of actually making touch from a midfield position, let alone with any distance upfield to make the risk worthwhile.
I can recall watching my son's U13 side playing on a full size pitch. At a lineout the attacking wingers were pretty ,much in line with the "nearest" goal post as at that age/physical development they weren't capable of passing far enough to allow for the backline to be positioned more than a few metres from each other. That's not kicking of course, but sums up the challenges that full width pitches have for very young players still
 
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Dickie E


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Give us an example of the part that's confusing you.
Red kick ball out on the full from outside their 22 and ball crosses plane of touch. Blue player, with both feet in FoP, decides to catch the ball and does so successfully with full control of the ball. As he is about to pass the ball to a team mate (ball still outside PoT) he drops the ball into touch. Who gets the throw & where?
 

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Red kick ball out on the full from outside their 22 and ball crosses plane of touch. Blue player, with both feet in FoP, decides to catch the ball and does so successfully with full control of the ball. As he is about to pass the ball to a team mate (ball still outside PoT) he drops the ball into touch. Who gets the throw & where?
Since the player is not in touch and the ball hasn’t touched the ground, crossing the plane doesn’t matter here. But by touching the ball they’ve now committed themselves to trying to catch and throw back and I’d treat that in 2 steps. Firstly, by successfully catching the ball from the FoP they have now gained possession of the ball. Secondly, by accidentally dropping the ball into touch they have now lost possession and the lineout goes to the other (originally kicking) team.
 

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Dammit - edit option has gone again…
Correction, they obvs don’t have to throw - they could catch and then just run with it. I mentioned throwing it as that was the scenario.

Also, mark of touch would be where the ball crossed the touchline after they took possession. If the ball was caught over the line and never came back over the FoP then I’d treat it as the player knocking into touch and award it pretty much where the player is standing.
 

Dickie E


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Since the player is not in touch and the ball hasn’t touched the ground, crossing the plane doesn’t matter here. But by touching the ball they’ve now committed themselves to trying to catch and throw back and I’d treat that in 2 steps. Firstly, by successfully catching the ball from the FoP they have now gained possession of the ball. Secondly, by accidentally dropping the ball into touch they have now lost possession and the lineout goes to the other (originally kicking) team.
I see it differently. Law 18.1 tells us:

If the ball has reached the plane of touch when it is caught, the catcher is not deemed to have taken the ball into touch.


The way I read that is this. Once the Red kick has put the ball over the plane and, provided the ball remains outside the plane (ie outside FoP), then there is nothing that Blue can do that would result in a Red throw.

So in the scenario there are only 3 possible outcomes:
1. Blue throw
2. If Blue knock ball backwards into FoP or catch ball and bring it back into FoP, play on
3. If Blue knock-on while attempting to catch the ball and ball lands in FoP, scrum Red
 

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I see it differently. Law 18.1 tells us:

If the ball has reached the plane of touch when it is caught, the catcher is not deemed to have taken the ball into touch.


The way I read that is this. Once the Red kick has put the ball over the plane and, provided the ball remains outside the plane (ie outside FoP), then there is nothing that Blue can do that would result in a Red throw.

So in the scenario there are only 3 possible outcomes:
1. Blue throw
2. If Blue knock ball backwards into FoP or catch ball and bring it back into FoP, play on
3. If Blue knock-on while attempting to catch the ball and ball lands in FoP, scrum Red
I agree in that it’s not in touch - in my mind I visualize the scenario described as the catcher has one or both feet on or over FoP and only their hands are over touch when they catch the ball. At that point, happy days - the ball is live, they are not in touch and can play the ball. However, if they then fumble the play (probably because they are stunned that they pulled that catch off) and drop the ball on or over the touch line, then at that point they have taken it into touch and blue get the throw. (And queue the howls of ridicule from their team.)
 

Dickie E


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I think the OP is looking for a rule of thumb to help in game day situations.

Here's my attempt and I'm happy to be shot down if its wrong.

1. if the ball has crossed the plane of touch it will be in touch unless:
i) a player in FoP catches or knocks ball back into FoP, or
ii) a player jumps from FoP and knocks ball back into FoP before landing in touch, or
iii) a player jumps from in touch and catches or knocks the ball back into FoP before landing in FoP

2. if the ball has not crossed the plane of touch it will not be in touch unless:
i) a player in touch catches the ball

So, as an AR (or nimble referee), your first critical focus point is to determine if the ball has crossed plane of touch. Once you've made the plane of touch decision, the rest just flows
 
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Mipper


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I think the OP is looking for a rule of thumb to help in game day situations.

Here's my attempt and I'm happy to be shot down if its wrong.

1. if the ball has crossed the plane of touch it will be in touch unless:
i) a player in FoP catches or knocks ball back into FoP, or
ii) a player jumps from FoP and knocks ball back into FoP before landing in touch, or
iii) a player jumps from in touch and catches or knocks the ball back into FoP before landing in FoP

2. if the ball has not crossed the plane of touch it will not be in touch unless:
i) a player in touch catches the ball

So, as an AR (or nimble referee), your first critical focus point is to determine if the ball has crossed plane of touch. Once you've made the plane of touch decision, the rest just flows
Top work Dickie. 👍
 

Stu10

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I think the OP is looking for a rule of thumb to help in game day situations.

Here's my attempt and I'm happy to be shot down if its wrong.

1. if the ball has crossed the plane of touch it will be in touch unless:
i) a player in FoP catches or knocks ball back into FoP, or
ii) a player jumps from FoP and knocks ball back into FoP before landing in touch, or
iii) a player jumps from in touch and catches or knocks the ball back into FoP before landing in FoP

2. if the ball has not crossed the plane of touch it will not be in touch unless:
i) a player in touch catches the ball

So, as an AR (or nimble referee), your first critical focus point is to determine if the ball has crossed plane of touch. Once you've made the plane of touch decision, the rest just flows

Almost, but I think one thing wrong...

iii) a player jumps from in touch and catches or knocks the ball back into FoP before landing in FoP

Law 18.2.b only allows for a player catching the ball:

A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.


Also remember, if the ball has not crossed the plane of touch it will not be in touch:
-
if a player in touch knocks the ball back into the FOP

... this contrasts to if that player caught the ball.
 
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