Would you ping him for not releasing the ball?

[ddjamo]

I think 2 is good. no issues here.

 

[Agustin]

However on the facts I would let play go on because I think it was all essentially immaterial.

Hmm... now you've lost me. How do you figure it is immaterial?

 

[Ian_Cook]

OB..

Here are some diagrams to illustrate my understanding of the "gate" as it applies to Law 15.6 (d)

When a single tackler brings the ball carrier to ground, I visuallise the white "H" drawn on the ground.

LAW 15.6 OTHER PLAYERS
(d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play
the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly
behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those
players’ goal line.

There are no commas or brackets and semicolons or any other grammar, so I read this as is;

"those players" I take to mean the the players other than tackler(s) and the tackled player.

"behind the ball" I take to mean anywhere behind the tranverse white line within the confines of the left and right limits of the gate. The Law does not say "directly" behind the ball so it doesn't mean "directly" behind the ball. Anywhere in their own gate area is fine

"directly behind the tackled player" On or very near a direct line between the tackled player and his own goal-line

or

"directly behind the the tackler closest to those players’ goal line." On or very near a direct line between the tackler closest to the player's own goal line, and his own goal-line

In this diagram, the ticks indicate where players may fetch the ball from, and the crosses indicate where they may not.

Position 1: Behind the ball and directly behind both the tackler and the tackled player --- OK

Position 2: Directly behind the ball, tackler and tackled player --- OK

Position 3: Behind the ball but NOT directly behind either the tackled player or the tackler --- NOT OK

In the case where there is more than one tackler, the limits of the gate apply only to the tackled player and the tackler nearest the fetchers own goal-line. The gate may be offset for each team.

Back to the original decision

Blue 2 was within his own gate, behind the ball, directly behind the tackler, in every way legal.

White 7, failed to release the ball, continued to make a small amount of progress on the ground, the rolled over on top of the ball.


"PEEP". PK against White 7 for not releasing the ball.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. On the one hand, you are adamant (and provide conclusive photographic evidence to demonstrate) that Blue 2 remains on his feet throughout. You then claim that he's a tackler - the definition of which requires that he has gone to ground

Read the post again.

► I argued that Blue 2 is a tackler, and therefore legal

► OB argued that Blue 2 is not a tackler.

I will concede that he is not a tackler, since he did not go to ground with White 7.

In that case, I still believe that Blue 2 is legally entitled to the ball, because he is in the gate, and on his feet.

So, regardless of whether or not Blue 2 is a tackler, it should be a PK against White, either for not releasing immediately, or for rolling on top of the ball.

Take your pick.

 

[Ian_Cook]

However on the facts I would let play go on because I think it was all essentially immaterial.

Hmm... now you've lost me. How do you figure it is immaterial?

Lost me too I'm afraid.

The try would not have been scored if White 7 had complied with Law 15.6 (d).

How can that NOT be material?

 

[Dickie E]

OB..

Here are some diagrams to illustrate my understanding of the "gate" as it applies to Law 15.6 (d)

When a single tackler brings the ball carrier to ground, I visuallise the white "H" drawn on the ground.



There are no commas or brackets and semicolons or any other grammar, so I read this as is;

"those players" I take to mean the the players other than tackler(s) and the tackled player.

"behind the ball" I take to mean anywhere behind the tranverse white line within the confines of the left and right limits of the gate. The Law does not say "directly" behind the ball so it doesn't mean "directly" behind the ball. Anywhere in their own gate area is fine

"directly behind the tackled player" On or very near a direct line between the tackled player and his own goal-line

or

"directly behind the the tackler closest to those players’ goal line." On or very near a direct line between the tackler closest to the player's own goal line, and his own goal-line

In this diagram, the ticks indicate where players may fetch the ball from, and the crosses indicate where they may not.

Position 1: Behind the ball and directly behind both the tackler and the tackled player --- OK

Position 2: Directly behind the ball, tackler and tackled player --- OK

Position 3: Behind the ball but NOT directly behind either the tackled player or the tackler --- NOT OK

In the case where there is more than one tackler, the limits of the gate apply only to the tackled player and the tackler nearest the fetchers own goal-line. The gate may be offset for each team.

Back to the original decision

Blue 2 was within his own gate, behind the ball, directly behind the tackler, in every way legal.

White 7, failed to release the ball, continued to make a small amount of progress on the ground, the rolled over on top of the ball.


"PEEP". PK against White 7 for not releasing the ball.

Ian,

on what basis have you defined the length of the "legs" of the gate? In figure 4, the blue gate stops at the blue player's head IMO.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian,

on what basis have you defined the length of the "legs" of the gate? In figure 4, the blue gate stops at the blue player's head IMO.

I'm not sure what you mean.

The blue gate stops at the ball (the odd-shaped white thing) as does the red gate. The transverse line is on the ball and is parallel to the goal-line

The "vertical" legs of the gate extend back indefinitely. They are there to clearly define the left and right limits of the gate

Perhaps some shading will make it clearer for you.

 

[ddjamo]

I think red may be playing rugby for "other" reasons...

 

[Dickie E]

I'm not sure what you mean.

The blue gate stops at the ball (the odd-shaped white thing) as does the red gate. The transverse line is on the ball and is parallel to the goal-line

The "vertical" legs of the gate extend back indefinitely. They are there to clearly define the left and right limits of the gate

Perhaps some shading will make it clearer for you.

Ian, I don't know how to draw on the drawing so will have to use words.

By saying The "vertical" legs of the gate extend back indefinitely this implies that an arriving player, in order to enter the tackle zone, must go around the extremity of one of the vertical legs. I don't this is what you mean, is it?

In other words, in scene 4, an arriving red player can enter in line with ball. An arriving blue player has to enter down near the red tackler's feet.

 

[Dixie]

This thread is fascinating, and most instructive. Thanks to all those, particularly Ian, who have gone to great lengths to clarify and explain.

Dickie's point is sound. An Other Player, including any non-tacklers, must arrive "through the gate". This means they must first go round behind the gate posts. Where are they located?

Looking again at figure 4, it appears that the posts of red's gate must be fractionally behind the ball (as that is the furthest forward point thgat a red player can enter the tackle zone diagonally and still be legal), while Blue's posts must be just behind the red player's rearmost boot.

Thus, Red has easier and quicker access to the ball than Blue does. Correct?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Dickie & Dixie

Extraordinary!!

Seasoned rugby referees unable to grasp concepts that took me less than five minutes to explain, using only a whiteboard, to a room full of Under 14's; and they all understood perfectly.

You are taking the "legs" of the gate too literally. The "gate" is indicated the white line across the pitch. The gate doesn't have "depth" (up and down the field), it only has "width" (across the field). The vertical lines simply indicate the left a right limits, or width of the gate.

Here are yet another couple of diagrams.

The players might be approaching the breakdown from any part of the field, but they must take a path that has them arriving at the tackle area from their own side of the white horizontal line. They must end up standing in the zone (bordered by the vertical dotted lines) on their own side of the gate before they can play the ball, e.g. a blue player arriving from position "A" must take a path similar to the blue line to his own side of the gate. Similarly, a red player coming from that position takes a path similar to the red line.

This applies to both diagrams but notice that on the right diagram, the blue player steps over the tackler on the ground (carefully, no boots on bodies remember). He is free to do this and does NOT have to go around the back of that player.

Any more questions?

 

[Dickie E]

This applies to both diagrams but notice that on the right diagram, the blue player steps over the tackler on the ground (carefully, no boots on bodies remember). He is free to do this and does NOT have to go around the back of that player.

I disagree. As far as I'm concerned he has to go around the back of that player.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I disagree. As far as I'm concerned he has to go around the back of that player.

Show me in Law where it says that.

edit:

Here is the Law

15.6 (d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player OR the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

OR not AND

 

[Phil E]

All very fascinating.
Lovely visual aids.
Thank God the forum doesn't support Powerpoint presentations :Nerv:


Suggestion.

1. Watch the original video at normal speed.
   
2. Make a judgment.
   
3. Stick to it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

All very fascinating.

Yes it is

Lovely visual aids.

Thank you :clap:

Thank God the forum doesn't support Powerpoint presentations :Nerv:

Now theres an idea. I have a nice little software application that turns PPS file into Flash Video for uploading to YouTube

I never thought of that... thanks :biggrin:

Suggestion.

1. Watch the original video at normal speed.
   
2. Make a judgment.
   
3. Stick to it.

Even if you are wrong, just stick to it :nono:

 

[Dixie]

Show me in Law where it says that.

edit:

Here is the Law

15.6 (d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player OR the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

OR not AND

I am afraid you can't claim the only possible interpretation on this law, Ian - and certainly not the only correct one.

Let me offer you a highly plausible alternative to the one you prefer, to whit: whichever of the tackler or the tackled player is closest to the Other Player's goal line, the Other Player must approach the Tackle Zone from behind the ball, and behind that player.

Using this interpretation, Dickie is right, while you and your room full of U.14's are wrong. Perhaps they lacked the experience, imagination, courage and/or intelligence to ask the right questions. Struggling to find an excuse for you! :biggrin:

 

[OB..]

When a single tackler brings the ball carrier to ground, I visuallise the white "H" drawn on the ground.

As soon as I read this, I realised your view flatly contradicts the one that we were taught.

A demonstration at a conference with National Panel referees present explained the concept of the gate by having a mock one on one tackle on the ground, and then using cones to mark the four corners of a rectangle surrounding both players, sides parallel to the touch and goal lines. That defined the tackle zone, and it has four side. Discussion centred on the running angles for players entering that tackle zone legally or illegally.

I do not see that as in conflict with 15.6 (d).
You parse it as equivalent to the following:
At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or from directly behind the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

Here is my equivalent version, which is the one I believe to be in use in England:
At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler, whoever is closest to those players’ goal line.

More simply, you take it as A and B, or A and C. I take it as A and (B or C).

IMHO therefore Blue 2 was illegal. It is claimed that the delay in playing back the ball by White 7 was illegal. If so, I judge it to have been caused by Blue 2. That was the thinking behind my "immaterial" comment.

I have reproduced some of Ian’s diagrams with a black rectangle superimposed, showing how I was taught to define a tackle zone.

 

[Davet]

Dixie

whichever of the tackler or the tackled player is closest to the Other Player's goal line, the Other Player must approach the Tackle Zone from behind the ball, and behind that player.

I assume that "Other Player" is the one defined in Law that is neither neither Tackler nor Tacklee. Synonymous with "those players" in 15.6.d

Such players must come from behind (ie from the direction of their own goal-line) the ball, AND whichever of Tackler or Tacklee is nearest "Those players" goal-line.

I can't see how this or OB's diagrams (given Ian has already said forget the length of the legs on his Hs) differ from Ian's diagrams - although I do think it requires those players to come from fully behind relevant Tackler/tacklee, not to cut corners across legs.

 

[Dickie E]

Let me offer you a highly plausible alternative to the one you prefer, to whit: whichever of the tackler or the tackled player is closest to the Other Player's goal line, the Other Player must approach the Tackle Zone from behind the ball, and behind that player.

Dixie, this is indeed my view.

Perhaps they lacked the experience, imagination, courage and/or intelligence to ask the right questions. Struggling to find an excuse for you! :biggrin:

A roomful of gobsmacked 13 year olds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMlZSKEu-Y

 

[Phil E]

A roomful of gobsmacked 13 year olds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMlZSKEu-Y

Going by the normal standards of your images I'm not even going to go there!!!!!