You're pulling my... arm

[didds]

An interesting point that has been made about the pull on watson's arm in the first try. I think that's worthy of debate - if only eg to explain why it is immaterial/not an issue/etc. I confess I hadn't noticed it until now but there is a definite pull on watson's arm (whether deliberate is another thing).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqwHJaXjSs0&feature=youtu.be&t=23

The ref + TMO obviously missed it too. easily done.

Had it been spotted - its arguably material. Should/would it have made a difference to the call? If not - why not? (CF Itoje playing the Irish jumper in the air - arms caught in the air etc).

didds

 

[menace]

For me...it's a dynamic contest in the air and their arms get tangled in the attempts to grab the ball...even in slo mo...so that's nothing intentional to deny anyone posession. A collision incident. Play on.
I like it to players running side by side and one player clips the heals of another..one falls the other doesnt. No ones fault. It's a racing incident!

 

[didds]

Which seems fair and reasonable to me. Although as OB might opine - nothing happens by accident at these levels.

Which brings us onto Itoje penalsied for playing the man in the air at the lineout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zhln8ExWI&feature=youtu.be&t=3260


wouldn't that also fit the criteria of

"a dynamic contest in the air and their arms get tangled in the attempts to grab the ball...even in slo mo...so that's nothing intentional to deny anyone posession. A collision incident. Play on. "

Their arms don;t even get entangled - Itoje's hand/arm is on the outside of the jumpers and doesn't affect his balance or ability to catch the ball.

AG remarks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zhln8ExWI&feature=youtu.be&t=3230) that its the second time Itoje has done this - been in contact with the arm - but I can't find a reference to the previous time to compare the amount of contact made.


(I'm not calling you out menace

didds

 

[DocY]

I'm with menace. It's just one of those things.

BUT - if the TMO had checked it, I expect the try not to have stood. Empathy and slow motion are not compatible.

 

[menace]

Not so Didds I dont see them as the same dymamics. One is a stop standing jump in a lineout is not the same as running and jumping to compete in the air. The lineout itoje jas more control of his grasping....he is also a long way from the ball.
Mind you i doubt I would have penalised that either as no real affect. Definitely a word to itoje to be careful.

Ps. Did the AR give AG that call...as usually thats one of the ARs jobs to watch pulling down in the lo.

 

[didds]

Mind you i doubt I would have penalised that either as no real affect. Definitely a word to itoje to be careful.

Ps. Did the AR give AG that call...as usually thats one of the ARs jobs to watch pulling down in the lo.

And again - that's fair enough as a point. How would we know the AR called it in - is there an easy "tell".

I have to say generally speaking that it hardly helps continuity and expectations if the AR has a hugely different criteria than the ref - or even the other AR on the other side of the pitch.

I would suggest that Itoje's contact is far less material than Kearney's?

didds

 

[menace]

I went back and listened and it appears AG seems to have made the call on his own (didnt hear an AR but not sure they broadcast it like they do the ref). On the account he said it was his 2nd...AG was sending a clear message the disruption in the air is not on. Maybe more of a managment PK..cause it was his 2nd..ie Tell, Penalise.

 

[didds]

I get that menace and agree (ie tell, PK etc).

Was Itoje's contact material? The chat cold have happened at the next down time with a "you were lucky not to get PKd cos it was actually immaterial this time". Or does it not work that way and refs have to stop the game once the seond part of the mantra is reached? No advantage ever etc? There was no advantage played - not even an attempt to play it. Ireland hasd the ball, there was no upending etc in the lineout etc. Frankly it was no more than a (probable) accidental arm slap.

I'm just not spotting much consistency between fairly related events or even the general view of refereeing you guys educate me on. Hence my confusion.

didds

 

[menace]

From our/camera view it didnt look material...BUT from AG view it may well have looked that the disruption stopped a quick ball (and maul started to form) so rather than wait for advantage may accrue he's nailed the PK to not waste time??

But as I concede I probably woould not have PK that one on it's own...but hey, AG is a much better referee than me so would know how to assess these things.
(though I have had the pleasure to meet AG a few times and I have actually 'referee coached' him a few years ago in a Pacific nations tournament...I say 'referee coached' but really it was him humoring a few new referee coaches and allowing us to quizz him as if could possibly give him some pointers. I also did a group referee coach him at an RC course last year after he refereed a benign waratahs super rugby game. He's a very grounded bloke and is personable where you can challenge his decision making and he takes it on board and will take ownership of 'poor' decisions. Maybe this one would be a talking point with the match observer?. It's also why we have the best game in the world and I love that us mere community bods can get access to the top end!!)

 

[davidlandy]

An interesting point that has been made about the pull on watson's arm in the first try. I think that's worthy of debate - if only eg to explain why it is immaterial/not an issue/etc. I confess I hadn't noticed it until now but there is a definite pull on watson's arm (whether deliberate is another thing).

Re the pull on Watson's arm, I can see what you're saying as it looks deliberate to me and it throws Watson off balance.

But OTOH it's quite minor as he doesn't even get a full grab on his arm.

So... wouldn't the standard of materiality be whether such relatively minor contact would have been a PK in any other part of play? If not, surely the answer would be "play on" even if it did affect the outcome.

(And the ref and TMO did both review the clip shown, and they clearly didn't have any problem with it.)

Re Itjoe, it's one his standard tricks. He did it this year against Wales, and England stole their LO ball and scored as a result. Quite material that one :biggrin:

 

[ChuckieB]

With the TMO referring to the contest in the air as dynamic and AG not seeking to react one way or another, it then ceases to be a point of discussion as far as the particular call under review is concerned.

I would like to know about any guidance that might help clarify what might be considered as dynamic or not.

 

[Pinky]

Watson had touched the ball before the pull so at that point he was a ball carrier and as long as the other player is also in the air and has a reasonable chance of gathering the ball then almost any amount of contact and that includes grabbing an arm would be OK by me.

MO was in a lineout and there is law about not interfering with a jumper until he gets back to the ground, so that is a nailed on PK unless you consider it not material, but you would probably have a word about his timing before the next lineout.