I would. 6 was taken off for tactical purposes ie substituted, so is allowed to come back to provide temporary cover for a player with a bleeding / open wound, or a FR player who is YC, RC or injured.
Why wouldn't we allow him back on? :chin:
Uncontested Scrums
- Thread starter the magpie
- Start date
Why wouldn't we allow him back on? :chin:
Dixie
I addressed this very point in the paragraph immediately following the one you quoted - I repeat it below.
My conclusion, in terms of your scenario is therefore, yes, bring 6 back on.
Anon was clearly dealing with the "normal" configuration in a team, and not being used to the robust examination of detail (or tedious nitpicking - depending on your point of view) on this forum was just a bit economical in his answer.
I addressed this very point in the paragraph immediately following the one you quoted - I repeat it below.
My conclusion, in terms of your scenario is therefore, yes, bring 6 back on.
Anon was clearly dealing with the "normal" configuration in a team, and not being used to the robust examination of detail (or tedious nitpicking - depending on your point of view) on this forum was just a bit economical in his answer.
Dixie
Referees in England
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 12,773
- Post Likes
- 338
The only possible reason is law 3.5:
[LAWS]3.5(a) The table below indicates the numbers of suitably trained and experienced players available for the front row when nominating different numbers of players.
Number of players ...........................................Number of suitably trained and experienced players
15 or less .....................................................Three players who can play in the front row
16, 17 or 18 ...............................................Four players who can play in the front row
19, 20, 21 or 22 ............................................. Five players who can play in the front row
(Union Specific Variations Law 3.14) 22 or 23 ... Six players who can play in the front row
(b) Each player in the front row and any potential replacement(s) must be suitably trained and
experienced[/LAWS]
When it says "the numbers available", does it mean the minimum, or the precise number? In other words, is SA limited to nominating 5 STE FR players, even though they may have 8 on the park?
Dixie - it has always, in my experience, been regarded as the minumum number required.
I have never yet witnessed any one say, "hang on - you have a squad of 22 with these 3 starting FR players, and these 2 guys on the bench who we know play FR, plus you have these other guys in the starting lineup who we also know play FR - you can't have all of them in your team...."
I have never yet witnessed any one say, "hang on - you have a squad of 22 with these 3 starting FR players, and these 2 guys on the bench who we know play FR, plus you have these other guys in the starting lineup who we also know play FR - you can't have all of them in your team...."
it must mean a minimum - surely. If a squad for one reason or another has six players who happen to be fit and STE that day then surely each or all of them may play in the front row during the game if needed.
there is the 'steve thompson' scenario. as i remember it his neck was giving him problems and he was - on that day - not fit to prop, so was not named as an STE player. I think it makes sense that - for that match, on that day - players are either STE or they are not, and they can't change their status during the game.
I'm pretty sure, there's a ruling that effectively says it's a minimum.
Ruling [9/2003] of the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
(1) "A team must have a minimum of two replacements who are suitably trained and experienced to ensure that on the first occasion a replacement hooker is required, and/or the first occasion a replacement prop is required the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums. This would mean that teams have the option of selecting a replacement hooker and a replacement prop capable of playing in both tight head and loose head positions; or of selecting an additional replacement front row at the expense of another position."
Last edited:
Dixie
Referees in England
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 12,773
- Post Likes
- 338
Of course they can be on the team. But that's not necessarily to say they can all be nominated as STE for that game. I've tried to find the RFU's league team sheet/results card online without success. From recollection, it is necessary to identify the STE FR's on there, and I've a nagging thought that it only envisages one. Can anyone with more recent access to it remind me how that really works?
- we had a player who played prop at school, but flanker for us (don't ask)
- he's a good example of a player who we don't normally expect to be in front row, but sometimes it happened.
- when the referee held the front row briefing he joined in, but then 9 games out of 10 for the rest of the game he's the flanker. It's no big deal.
- he was an 'extra STE' and useful to have around.
- he's a good example of a player who we don't normally expect to be in front row, but sometimes it happened.
- when the referee held the front row briefing he joined in, but then 9 games out of 10 for the rest of the game he's the flanker. It's no big deal.
- he was an 'extra STE' and useful to have around.
Dixie
Referees in England
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 12,773
- Post Likes
- 338
Interesting that the ruling does not show up on your original post, but does come up when quoting that post.
It's useful and persuasive. However, it clearly deals with 3.5 c and d, in which case that minimum is indeed implicit. But the existence of a minimum for those purposes does not automatically address the question of whether there is also a maximum.
Last edited:
I couldn't get into the Rulings section of the IRB site initially, but got in at the 3rd attempt, so it may have changed just as you were quoting it.
Dixie - OK The league cards I have seen usually require STE FR to be marked with a *.
I don't know and have never been aware of a maximum limit on this. I don't think I'd have a problem, other than a quick double take and gasp of astonishment, if all 18 squad members were so marked -
I don't know and have never been aware of a maximum limit on this. I don't think I'd have a problem, other than a quick double take and gasp of astonishment, if all 18 squad members were so marked -
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2003
- Messages
- 9,650
- Post Likes
- 7
IRB confirm Protocol & Sub Laws. Does it sound like something I posted earlier?
Following the confusion about the use of substitutes/replacements in the Pretoria Test when South Africa played Australia, the IRB has clarified the relevant law and issued a protocol for those in charge of the coming and going of players during a match.
The problem in Pretoria revolved around the number of substitutes/replacements of front row players that resulted in the Australians' playing the end part of the match with just 14 players after Tatafu Polota-Nau was injured and the scrums then became uncontested, which is unsatisfying.
We shall deal with the Law first and then, separately, the protocol. Note that the substution of a player is tactical;, replacement is for injury. It is a pity that this was not available earlier.
Law 3.12 SUBSTITUTED PLAYERS REJOINING THE MATCH
(a) If a player is substituted, that player must not return and play in that match, even to replace an injured player.
Exception 1: a substituted player may replace a player with an open or bleeding wound.
Exception 2: a substituted player may replace a front row player when injured, temporarily suspended or sent off unless the referee has ordered uncontested scrums prior to the event which led to the front row player leaving the field of play and the team has used all the permitted replacements and substitutions.
The IRB's comment:
Law 3.12 (a) Exception 2:
With the exception in Law 3.12 (a) regarding front row players:
1. How many replacements/substitutions are allowed in the front row?
2. How many replacements/substitutions in total allowed in a match?
Scenario 1: 22 Players in a team
When 22 players are nominated in the team, with five (5) players nominated as suitably trained and experienced front row players, the team may tactically substitute two (2) players in the front row.
During a match the team must be able, on the first occasion an injury to a prop or a hooker occur in the match, to replace the injured front row player with a suitably trained and experienced front row player in order to continue with contested scrums in the match.
The two (2) substituted front row players may replace any front row player when injured provided the replacement front row player is suitably trained for that specific front row position. (Tight Head, Loose Head or Hooker)
In a match the total number of substitutes and replacements in the front row allowed as per above is four (4).
If a team has used all its permitted substitutions/replacements and the referee has ordered uncontested scrums prior to the injury, temporarily suspension or sent off a replacement is not allowed.
Up to five (5) other players may be substituted in the match.
The total number of substitutes/replacements allowed in the match as per above can thus be up to nine (9).
Scenario 2: 22/23 Players in a team
When 22 or 23 players are nominated in the team, with six (6) players nominated as suitably trained and experienced front row players, the team may tactically substitute up to three (3) players in the front row.
During a match the team must be able, on the first occasion an injury to Loose Head prop, Tight Head prop or Hooker occur in the match, to replace the injured front row player with a suitably trained and experienced front row player in order to be able to continue with contested scrums.
The three (3) substituted front row players may replace any front row player when injured, temporarily suspended or sent off provided the replacement player is suitably trained and experienced for that specific front row position. (Tight Head, Loose Head or Hooker)
The total number of substitutes and replacements in the front row allowed as per above is six (6).
If a team has used all its permitted substitutions/replacements and the referee has ordered uncontested scrums prior to the injury, temporarily suspension or sent off a replacement is not allowed.
Up to five (5) other players may be substituted in the match.
The total number of substitutes/replacement allowed in the match as per above can thus be up to eleven (11).
Following the confusion about the use of substitutes/replacements in the Pretoria Test when South Africa played Australia, the IRB has clarified the relevant law and issued a protocol for those in charge of the coming and going of players during a match.
The problem in Pretoria revolved around the number of substitutes/replacements of front row players that resulted in the Australians' playing the end part of the match with just 14 players after Tatafu Polota-Nau was injured and the scrums then became uncontested, which is unsatisfying.
We shall deal with the Law first and then, separately, the protocol. Note that the substution of a player is tactical;, replacement is for injury. It is a pity that this was not available earlier.
Law 3.12 SUBSTITUTED PLAYERS REJOINING THE MATCH
(a) If a player is substituted, that player must not return and play in that match, even to replace an injured player.
Exception 1: a substituted player may replace a player with an open or bleeding wound.
Exception 2: a substituted player may replace a front row player when injured, temporarily suspended or sent off unless the referee has ordered uncontested scrums prior to the event which led to the front row player leaving the field of play and the team has used all the permitted replacements and substitutions.
The IRB's comment:
Law 3.12 (a) Exception 2:
With the exception in Law 3.12 (a) regarding front row players:
1. How many replacements/substitutions are allowed in the front row?
2. How many replacements/substitutions in total allowed in a match?
Scenario 1: 22 Players in a team
When 22 players are nominated in the team, with five (5) players nominated as suitably trained and experienced front row players, the team may tactically substitute two (2) players in the front row.
During a match the team must be able, on the first occasion an injury to a prop or a hooker occur in the match, to replace the injured front row player with a suitably trained and experienced front row player in order to continue with contested scrums in the match.
The two (2) substituted front row players may replace any front row player when injured provided the replacement front row player is suitably trained for that specific front row position. (Tight Head, Loose Head or Hooker)
In a match the total number of substitutes and replacements in the front row allowed as per above is four (4).
If a team has used all its permitted substitutions/replacements and the referee has ordered uncontested scrums prior to the injury, temporarily suspension or sent off a replacement is not allowed.
Up to five (5) other players may be substituted in the match.
The total number of substitutes/replacements allowed in the match as per above can thus be up to nine (9).
Scenario 2: 22/23 Players in a team
When 22 or 23 players are nominated in the team, with six (6) players nominated as suitably trained and experienced front row players, the team may tactically substitute up to three (3) players in the front row.
During a match the team must be able, on the first occasion an injury to Loose Head prop, Tight Head prop or Hooker occur in the match, to replace the injured front row player with a suitably trained and experienced front row player in order to be able to continue with contested scrums.
The three (3) substituted front row players may replace any front row player when injured, temporarily suspended or sent off provided the replacement player is suitably trained and experienced for that specific front row position. (Tight Head, Loose Head or Hooker)
The total number of substitutes and replacements in the front row allowed as per above is six (6).
If a team has used all its permitted substitutions/replacements and the referee has ordered uncontested scrums prior to the injury, temporarily suspension or sent off a replacement is not allowed.
Up to five (5) other players may be substituted in the match.
The total number of substitutes/replacement allowed in the match as per above can thus be up to eleven (11).
Ha ha. Yes when I read that somewhere else I thought "well that's old news". You did well Robbie.
Ha ha. Yes when I read that somewhere else I thought "well that's old news". You did well Robbie.
so - was Rolland right, or was he wrong?
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2003
- Messages
- 9,650
- Post Likes
- 7
He was wrong.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2003
- Messages
- 9,650
- Post Likes
- 7
All thanks to some good (and accurate) contacts in the know.
he was wrong because..
Where the requirement is to have a minimum of 2 STE FR replacements:
That of course is based on the assumption that a side only has the minimum number of FR replacements, which is 2.
If they happened to have 3 STE FR on the bench then they can Replace 1 and Sub 2, and the 2 subbed player can then come back if the players that subbed for them get injured.
So it may be 5
Or possibly 10, if they had an extra FR available over and above the minimum requirement.
Or are the iRB saying that you may NOT have other players in the team capable of playing in the FR over and above the required number; or if you happen to do so they may NOT play FR under any circumstances.
If that is what they saying then that is entirely stupid.
That of course is based on the assumption that a side only has the minimum number of FR replacements, which is 2.
If they happened to have 3 STE FR on the bench then they can Replace 1 and Sub 2, and the 2 subbed player can then come back if the players that subbed for them get injured.
So it may be 5
Or possibly 10, if they had an extra FR available over and above the minimum requirement.
Or are the iRB saying that you may NOT have other players in the team capable of playing in the FR over and above the required number; or if you happen to do so they may NOT play FR under any circumstances.
If that is what they saying then that is entirely stupid.