Debate about the breakdown

[Dixie]

Firstly, if the "jackler" lifts the ball it is no longer a ruck

It's a point of view, but not necessarily correct. You presumably argue that once the ball is off the ground, we no longer have the conditions under which a ruck takes place - i.e. ball on the ground, two players in contact over it. So if the fact of the ball leaving the ground stops a situation being a ruck, what phase of play are we in if, at a ruck, the defence manage to heel the ball onto the tackler/tackled players around whom the ruck formed, and who make no effort to play the ball?

 

[NikneRef]

For what it's worth, USA Rugby appears to take the position of the referee here, perhaps at the direction of a global directive. See the following guideline from the 2013 game management manual. :

"At a tackle, arriving players are allowed to play the ball with their hands after
an opposition player binds onto them, if they:
a. Arrive at the tackle legally,
b. Remain on their feet, and
c. Have possession of the ball prior to the contact occurring (i.e. was
grasping/holding the ball - this should be a positive action to gain possession of the ball, not merely putting one’s hands/arms on/over the ball).
NOTE: Thus, a ruck has not yet formed."

available at http://www.marfu.org/files/USARR-GMG-2013.pdf , at page 3

 

[Dixie]

NOTE: Thus, a ruck has not yet formed."

This is the bit that lets the cat out of the bag - they haven't a clue what they are talking about. The relevant law is found in Law 16 - Ruck. 16.4 is entitled "other ruck offences". 16.4(b) permits the jackler to handle in the ruck. How is any of this possible if there is as yet no ruck?

 

[Womble]

It's a point of view, but not necessarily correct. You presumably argue that once the ball is off the ground, we no longer have the conditions under which a ruck takes place - i.e. ball on the ground, two players in contact over it. So if the fact of the ball leaving the ground stops a situation being a ruck, what phase of play are we in if, at a ruck, the defence manage to heel the ball onto the tackler/tackled players around whom the ruck formed, and who make no effort to play the ball?

Dixie, I know where you may be going with this and don't want to confuse others so lets agree that if a player lifts the ball pre engagement it's not a ruck! :buttkick:

 

[Camquin]

If (s)he is off his/her feet after a tackle (s)he can place or pass the ball.
Holding it in the air is not placing it.
So penalty for holding on.

Camquin

 

[Davet]

16.4(b) Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.
Sanction: Penalty kick


Nice use of language for once.

Hands on the ball - NOT has possession of, NOT has the ball IN his hamds...

On the ball - so the ball is on the floor and a ruck may form, and if it does so the player who had hands ON can keep them on.

If that player had got the ball off the floor then we would not get a ruck, the starting conditions would never be fulfilled. we would have open play then a tackle or perhaps a maul.

So if the fact of the ball leaving the ground stops a situation being a ruck,

That's not quite the way it works, AFTER the ruck forms the ball doesn't have to stay on the floor - that's the starting condition, but the ball leaving the floor isn't the end of the ruck.

That said the whole law change that introduced this was flawed in principle - ruck ball can, and frankly should, be quick ball - keeps hands off, keep players on their feet and lets play the game quickly. Allowing this window to slow down ball is simply wrong - but there it is in law.

 

[Pinky]

Whilst I tend to think the ref is wrong in this case, he might be able to justfy a penalty under 15.6 (e)

(e) Any player who gains possession of the ball at the tackle must play the ball immediately by
moving away or passing or kicking the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Just an idle observation, is a jackler not contravening 15.7 (a)

(a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

 

[Browner]

ruck ball can, and frankly should, be quick ball - keeps hands off, keep players on their feet and lets play the game quickly. Allowing this window to slow down ball is simply wrong - but there it is in law.

Where did this assumption that 'Quick Ball' is the only required ball, come from? RL again? /Tv/spectacle/entertainment!

You can legitimately have a host of players engaged in a pushing contest over the top of a ball on the ground to gain possession of it. Some might say the game would be better if more players were tied up/engaged in such a contest, it might create more space elsewhere to run through ..... reducing 14 defenders in a line facing you would be a good thing-no? All without hands on ball of course.

 

[FlipFlop]

Ignoring all the details of the law.... (i.e. not looking at wording or specifics)

If after a tackle, a jackler gets his hands on the ball (by this I mean on the side or underneath so that they can actually pick it up if allowed), I am happy. BUT if all they do then it prevent the ball from being played, I'm not a happy bunny - or if they just put a hand on top of the ball (and push down?). By this I mean if they make NO effort to steal the ball. Personally I am fed up with seeing too many players try to win a PK by "trying" to lift a ball, while deliberately holding the players leg as well, or holding the ball and not trying to lift (in both cases aiming at a holding on PK).

As a jackler - you get there legally, and try and win the ball, I'm fully supporting your rights. But if you get there and only intend to hold it in, or try and win a "fake" PK, then I'm less likely to see it your way.

And a player with hands on - will be closely watching to see if they go to ground, then I want the release....

And if a player rucks the ball, and hands are in the way, I'm happy, as players are allowed to ruck the ball. If I think they deliberately aim for the hands though, it is a different issue.

 

[OB..]

As a jackler - you get there legally, and try and win the ball, I'm fully supporting your rights. But if you get there and only intend to hold it in, or try and win a "fake" PK, then I'm less likely to see it your way.

Agreed.

And if a player rucks the ball, and hands are in the way, I'm happy, as players are allowed to ruck the ball.

How can he ruck the ball if hands are in the way? This is just the sort of case where it is likely to make better sense to penalise the "jackler" for trying to contrive a penalty.

 

[Dixie]

Ignoring all the details of the law.... (i.e. not looking at wording or specifics)

You could end up with a very different game by adopting that approach!

If after a tackle, a jackler gets his hands on the ball (by this I mean on the side or underneath so that they can actually pick it up if allowed), I am happy. BUT if all they do then it prevent the ball from being played, I'm not a happy bunny

They are not preventing the ball being played - are themselves playing the ball! Presumably your objection stems from the fact that they are preventing the team taking the ball into the tackle from winning the ensuing ruck - whatever happened to that fundamental principle of the game - the Contest for the Ball:

[LAWS]The contest for possession of the ball is one of Rugby’s key features. These contests occur throughout the Game and in a number of different forms:
• in contact
• in general play
• when play is re-started at scrums, lineouts and kick offs.

The contests are balanced in such a way as to reward superior skill displayed in the preceding action.[/LAWS]

So: Red take ball into contact and lack the skill to support the ball carrier properly. Blue tackler has the skill to bring down his man, and Blue jackler has the skill to get his hands on the ball really quickly - entitling him to keep them there throughout any ensuing ruck. Flipflop applies Rule 1 (see initial quote above) and decides that this skilled play prevents the unskilled Red team achieving "positive" play - and so is to penalised by inventing some spurious offence.

Challenge to OB and Flipflop: bearing in mind that Law 21 deals with the team taking a PK or FK, and not with rucks, find an offence in the iRB law book with which to punish the jackler who holds the ball against the body of a rolled-up tackled player who is busily covering his head rather than rolling away?

Agreed.

How can he ruck the ball if hands are in the way? This is just the sort of case where it is likely to make better sense to penalise the "jackler" for trying to contrive a penalty.

What law covers that offence? And how do you decide whether his grip on the ball is designed to con a PK out of you or to slow the ball down?

 

[Womble]

It would appear that some refs are making things up and not reading and applying the law! There are many laws that (as a coach & player ) I do not agree with but when I referee I apply. There is no choice, we can not make up law application to fit our views, We can however Learn the law book inside out and learn from others.

 

[ddjamo]

the coaches, players and fans all want quick ball and space. those are our goals.

 

[Womble]

the coaches, players and fans all want quick ball and space. those are our goals.

Totaly agree, but If players are coached to play inside the laws & do so then why apply a law that is not there ( OP )

 

[L'irlandais]

...What law covers that offence? And how do you decide whether his grip on the ball is designed to con a PK out of you or to slow the ball down?

I stated my position back in #4
Which was the ref's decision in this case was debatable, however he could justify the penalty under 15.6 (e), in a pinch.

In answer to your question ; How about?[laws]10.2 Unfair play
(a) Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/laws]

or
[laws]10.4 (m)
Acts contrary to good sportsmanship.
A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/laws]

ps. I do agree with you that the contest for the ball is fundamental to the game. However contriving a penalty (off topic in this discussion, by the way) is not part and parcel of the game. (I wish)

 

[crossref]

one of the nice things about this forum is that when one is tempted to referee according to what the Law Makers 'must have really meant' one discovers that other referees have completely different ideas on what the Law Makers'must have really meant'

 

[Womble]

15.6 (e) Any player who gains possession of the ball at the tackle must play the ball immediately by moving away or passing or kicking the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So if he doesn't gain possesion of the ball , doesn't appeal for "holding sir" but just holds the ball down (within the law IMO ) you ping him for being unsportsman like,!! Please please what is this game coming to?

 

[Taff]

... So if he doesn't gain possesion of the ball , doesn't appeal for "holding sir" but just holds the ball down (within the law IMO ) you ping him for being unsportsman like!!

Why would a player entitled to pick up the ball, not pick up the ball?

I don't get it; what possible benefit is he gaining by just "holding the ball down". If he's got no intention of picking up the ball and doing something with it, I'd be thinking to myself "Leave the bloody thing alone then".

 

[OB..]

How can he ruck the ball if hands are in the way? This is just the sort of case where it is likely to make better sense to penalise the "jackler" for trying to contrive a penalty.

What law covers that offence? And how do you decide whether his grip on the ball is designed to con a PK out of you or to slow the ball down?

Context. I was giving the rationale behind my belief that 15.6(e) needs to be enforced here.

Contriving a penalty became so prevalent at quick tap penalties that they put it into the law, so the principle is not new.

Jackling is relatively new and the laws are unsatisfactory. For example: Blue is tackled and Red gets to the ball first, but before he can do anything with it, another Blue player binds on to him. Ruck. Red now lifts the ball. What phase of play do we have? Is it still a ruck even though the ball is not on the ground and cannot be rucked? It is not a maul because there is only one Red player involved. Is it open play? It seems to be a muck.

I think we all say that the man on his feet is king, so the jackler can prevent the tackled player from placing the ball. I reconcile the conflict between 15.6 (b) and 15.7 by saying the jackler may play the ball but not the man.

I presume Womble lets the jackler hold the ball against the tackled player who attempts to play it back, and is supported by his MOs and coach. Stalemate? Scrum?

 

[L'irlandais]

one of the nice things about this forum is that when one is tempted to referee according to what the Law Makers 'must have really meant' one discovers that other referees have completely different ideas on what the Law Makers'must have really meant'

Yipe, yet another discussion going off topic.

The BFG's post #15 makes the most sense in the context of harlequins1970's original post.
The jackler's coach is coaching his (young?) players to adopt a position (shoulders below hips) which is dangerous. Shame the opposition's prop didn't pile into him, that'd end the debate about safe, or not safe. In the interests of player safety, blow up the ruck, consider red carding the coach for repeatedly shouting at the ref's decision.
I don't particularly disagree with those who say the ref may have got it wrong ; however perhaps harlequins1970 might like to point out to the coach in question that player safety comes first ; that and any decent coach would wait 'til after the game to have a quiet word with the ref about the decision, rather than shouting during the game. (Showing great example to his charges, not!) The coach is wrong on at least 2 counts. As far as we know the ref only made the 1 misinterpretation of the LoTG.
First thing I learnt as a coach was to observe during the games, how else can he hope to advice/correct/improve his players abilities.