Concussion tests

[Dixie]

There must be some research that justified the 5 min test ?

There is no 5-minute test. All there is is a 5 minute window during which a player with marginal (or no) symptoms can be properly assessed to see whether or not he suffered a concussion. Unfortunately, as many foresaw at the time, all that does is give the medics 5 minutes to get smelling salts under his nose, ensure he can walk and get him back on. ANYONE could see on the pitch that he was concussed. There was absolutely no need for any further test to see whether he was concussed. This was an incident in which the old rules would have served us better. It also gives the lie to the idea that qualified medics in the employ of the sport are better placed than referees to determine the player's interests. Whichever doctor gave the OK for the team to send him back on should face a professional disciplinary, with the possibility of being struck off if found to have acted improperly.

 

[kaypeegee]

Five minute concussion test required last night in Bath

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-team-mate-seen-swanning-city-centre-pub.html

 

[Rushforth]

Did he play on?

 

[Browner]

There is no 5-minute test. All there is is a 5 minute window during which a player with marginal (or no) symptoms can be properly assessed to see whether or not he suffered a concussion. Unfortunately, as many foresaw at the time, all that does is give the medics 5 minutes to get smelling salts under his nose, ensure he can walk and get him back on. ANYONE could see on the pitch that he was concussed. There was absolutely no need for any further test to see whether he was concussed. This was an incident in which the old rules would have served us better. It also gives the lie to the idea that qualified medics in the employ of the sport are better placed than referees to determine the player's interests. Whichever doctor gave the OK for the team to send him back on should face a professional disciplinary, with the possibility of being struck off if found to have acted improperly.

:deadhorse: and the chances of that happening are between nought, zero, zilch & none.

 

[Shelflife]

The problem with this happening at elite level is that once again it filters down to our level and more worringly juvenile level. coaches see their best player go down and want to get hime back in the game asap, or they just assume that its safe to do so as they see on the tv that a short rest will get them sorted again.

Ive asked two underage players to leave the pitch after been put back on again by the coaches, one of them started crying in the lineout, the sad thing was there was 5 mins left in the game and as a contest it was well over, they had unused subs as well and they still put him back on.

Its a bad influence and something i personally think is wrong, the serious damage is done on the second blow to the head soon after the first I think its just a matter of time before we see a case taken against a coach or a team for a failure in their duty of care.

For me, if you are KOed then thats your game over, or if you have to be helped from the pitch then thats your game over too.

 

[L'irlandais]

Two sides to every story : Radio interview

iRB's chief medical officer Dr. Martin Raftery on concussions in rugby.

:shrug: He mentions 2 World Cup studies, (RWC 2012 mentioned here) and this Stephanie Hollis report.
Anybody actually seen results from the RWC studies on-line?

 

[Daftmedic]

I have many a time told the couch/physio that this chap is not returning onto the pitch.

 

[tim White]

I have many a time told the couch.

Just remind us again, which one of you was concussed?

 

[Ian_Cook]

At the elite level, there surely has to be an answer to this problem of medics being under pressure to put possibly concussed players back on the field.

What about the iRB requiring the competition organisers at elite level to have an independent medical professional on hand whose task it is to assess potentially concussed players. Take the job right out of the hands of the team doctors and medics. It would not be hard to do, and would be relatively inexpensive.

For example, in Super Rugby, in each town/city where matches are played, the NZRU, ARU and SARU could have a couple of doctors who would be willing, for a financial consideration, and perhaps season tickets for the family, to attend every home game and act as independent medical professional should circumstance arise.

In the NZ Pony Club rules, we are required to have a qualified medical professional (this can be a paramedic or a doctor) in attendance for any One Day Event or Show Jumping competition. We have to pay them out of our entry fees, and this is at kids grass-roots level.

 

[Daftmedic]

Just remind us again, which one of you was concussed?

Sorry iPhone prediction. Urgh

 

[Browner]

c'mon ian, as soon as a person has a paymaster /sponsor/(this includes free season tickets) he'd be open to the same political pressures that blight all the cases were influence comes to be involved.

 

[L'irlandais]

...What about the iRB requiring the competition organisers at elite level to have an independent medical professional on hand whose task it is to assess potentially concussed players. .l.

See my post #26 : that very point was covered in the linked interview : Studies have shown that when independent medical professional were on hand 50% of players were returned to the field of play compared to some 38% when the player was assessed by the team doctor. Perhaps Team doctors know when a pro player is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. In any case team doctors are less likely to put a player back on the field of play than an independent medical professional . ~shrug~ I'd like to be able to down load that report he mentioned from the iRB website!

The underlying problem is the macho culture among the players, who consider concussion to be like a bruised leg, something to play thru'/run it off. Some of these guys learn the answers to the set questions by heart, anything just to get back on the pitch. There needs to be a change of attitude, that players come to see that by playing on, it's not only dangerous for them (a risk people like B'OD are willing to take) but also letting their team mates down by (likely)playing well under par if they are concussed. If players wish to been seen as professionals then let them start acting like pros. Do we see people flouting Health & safety requirements like that in other professions? (Don't answer that!)

 

[OB..]

do we see people flouting health & safety requirements like that in other professions? (don't answer that!)

Stapley v Gypsum Mines [1953] AC 663 House of Lords

Mr Stapley was killed when a roof of a mine fell on top of him. At the time of his death he was acting against his employers orders. He and another employee Mr Dale had been told to bring the roof down as it was dangerous. The pair knew that this meant that they should not to work in that part of the mine because of the risk. They attempted to bring down the roof but were unsuccessful in their attempts. They then decided to continue with the work they had originally been given. At the time of the collapse, Mr Dale had briefly left that part of the mine and was uninjured. Mrs Stapely brought an action against his employer for breach of statutory duty in relation to the actions of Mr Dale. The trial judge found for the claimant, but reduced the damages by 50% under the Law Reform (Contributory Negligence) Act 1945. The Court of Appeal allowed an appeal by the defendant holding that Mr Stapely was solely responsible for his own death. The claimant appealed to the Lords.

Held:

3:2

The appeal was allowed but the damages were reduced by 80%.

http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Stapley-v-Gypsum-Mines.php

 

[tim White]

But Mr Stapely was not suffering from concussion at the time he decided to undertake the risk, he was ABLE to take the decision for himself -HE accepted the risk. Pitch-side, other people are taking the decision on behalf of the possibly concussed player.

 

[L'irlandais]

IRB Concussion Guidelines if anyone is interested.

 

[mark.lucas]

IMO The actions of the IRB are sending a consistent message that concussion isn't really much to worry about.
That worries me . Last season I witnessed a 16 yr old prop who had been clearly knocked out returned to the pitch after (imo) a completely cursory examination.

5 minutes later his team mates were so worried about him they asked for him to be taken off.

I ref at Junior level and am a First-Aider, if I saw that it would be an instant off the field.

Last week I was watching my daughter play (U10 supposedly as a spectator, but suddenly became First Aid central) and a lad had a minor collision (not his head) but across his body so winded. He's OK, he can play on. Then a second bang to the head - off. And three minutes later after I've sat him down in a chair, his head is lolling, he can't focus readily on my finger when I move it around ...

 

[Browner]

Interestingly Geoff Parling omitted from England squad ........... Lancaster said "Geoff Parling sustained a mild concussion during a contact session this afternoon and will undergo the recommended graduated return to play protocol. As such, he will be unavailable for Saturday’s game but will stay in camp with a view to returning to training next week.” ................. has someone been listening ?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Interestingly Geoff Parling omitted from England squad ........... Lancaster said "Geoff Parling sustained a mild concussion during a contact session this afternoon and will undergo the recommended graduated return to play protocol. As such, he will be unavailable for Saturday’s game but will stay in camp with a view to returning to training next week.” ................. has someone been listening ?

But that is his Union.

Do you trust that his Club would be so honest and forthright in the same situation

(I don't)

 

[Simon Thomas]

Interestingly Geoff Parling omitted from England squad ........... Lancaster said "Geoff Parling sustained a mild concussion during a contact session this afternoon and will undergo the recommended graduated return to play protocol. As such, he will be unavailable for Saturday’s game but will stay in camp with a view to returning to training next week.” ................. has someone been listening ?

As Ian says this is a Country Union not a Club decision (with plenty of squad members to step up) and it was after a training ground incident, not in the pressure of a "must win" match.

 

[OB..]

The cynic in me wonders if this is a case where England fear the club might sue if anything went wrong, whereas if the club plays him, would he sue them?

However from a H&S point of view, it is good whatever the ulterior thinking.