No let up in dissent

[barker14610]

they have already heard it before...do refs think that their tongues are so magic that words alone will snap the players, through the captain, into 80min of compliance?

less is better. it builds trust. stand tall and confident. say few words and get out of there. I prefer feedback from captains like, "first guy ever to treat me with respect and not talk down to me." empathy and respect vs repeating the same crap they have heard ad nauseam.

how would you guys like it that every time you showed up to a match there was an assessor there that repeated the scrum cadence to you as if you had never heard it before? or went over the tackle sequence with you 20 times a season? all the while you are managing those aspects of play - but they just say it to you anyway? that's what a pmb is to a player.

This is right. It is their game. Come down hard on the first one. Make an example. They will calm down.

 

[Rushforth]

This is right. It is their game. Come down hard on the first one. Make an example. They will calm down.

I agree with ddjamo's post, and obviously your approach works for you.

I absolutely agree with it being "their game". But since I don't PMB the whole team, nor even front rows, I for one am hesitant to "come down hard", particularly to "make an example".

Mind you, dissent seems rare when I ref, at least compared to "appeals". Then again, my captains invariably ask me at the "any questions" part of the toss/PMB when the ball is out of the ruck. Which implies a lack of both consistency of my peers and knowledge of the captains ... .

 

[Pegleg]

You don't PMB the front rows? What does your union say about that? I done a few Netherland touring sides and they've all expected one.

 

[Rushforth]

You don't PMB the front rows? What does your union say about that? I done a few Netherland touring sides and they've all expected one.

I usually check with the coaches that they have a suitably trained and experienced front row, remind them that I will make mark for hookers to have right ear above it on the "bind" - which I repeat on the first scrum in addition to "shoulders level".

I do PMB front rows if it is clear that they need it, which is the case any time youth teams I have not PMB'd before are for sure, but this season it seems that the message has gotten through. There are no "hits" to worry about.

 

[Pegleg]

So, I repeat, what does your union say?

 

[Rushforth]

So, I repeat, what does your union say?

I'll let you know in 10 days time. My current position is based on my own experience that it hasn't necessary last year, triggered by a past head coach of the national team here.

If you want to discuss the scrum and/or PMB of more than front row, I suggest we take it to another thread.

 

[Pegleg]

Interested that a past national coach seems to be dictating referee policy. I'd have thought you'd seek that information from your association / society not a coach.

If a coach told me a PMB was "not required" I'd be refusing to start the game and reporting the reason why.

Interesting.

 

[barker14610]

I absolutely agree with it being "their game". But since I don't PMB the whole team, nor even front rows, I for one am hesitant to "come down hard", particularly to "make an example".

The players know the law, especially this one. Do you not call a high tackle because you did not address it with everyone before the match? Jamo's key here is to just be respectful to the captains and it works well.

 

[Rushforth]

If a coach told me a PMB was "not required" I'd be refusing to start the game and reporting the reason why.

Ok, you seem to be misprepresenting what I wrote. This may be because you are unaware between the difference of "suggesting" and "telling". The word I used earlier was "triggered".

The coach in question suggested they knew the law, as per barker below. Since I had told him I was about to do the PMB, I didn't acquiesce to his suggestion at the time.

After proceeding with the front row PMB, we had a game with no real scrum issues, which is common now the blight of "the hit" has been removed.

I did not have any further discussion with this coach after that match, nor at any other time about that specific issue with him. I may see him tomorrow, as it happens, so I can raise the issue.

But to rerail:

 

[The Fat]

I'll let you know in 10 days time. My current position is based on my own experience that it hasn't necessary last year, triggered by a past head coach of the national team here.

If you want to discuss the scrum and/or PMB of more than front row, I suggest we take it to another thread.

Sounds like a past national coach "pulling rank" on what he obviously sees as "a lowly referee who knows less than me" situation. Not much respect shown there and you haven't even started the game yet.

 

[Rushforth]

The players know the law, especially this one. Do you not call a high tackle because you did not address it with everyone before the match? Jamo's key here is to just be respectful to the captains and it works well.

Absolutely, but my problem is not dissent as such. The Dutch believe they have the right to share their opinion on anything at all times. The vast majority of Dutch rugby players actually manage to refrain from doing so for 80 minutes. The remainder do not dissent (as such) but rather "appeal".

In general they do not retaliate for high tackles - or what they think are high tackles even if they aren't - but rather appeal.

Don't get me wrong, anything nasty I will come down on like a ton of bricks. I will reverse penalties for backchat. It just isn't necessary very often here.

 

[Rushforth]

Sounds like a past national coach "pulling rank" on what he obviously sees as "a lowly referee who knows less than me" situation. Not much respect shown there and you haven't even started the game yet.

I'm sorry if it sounds like that, but this was in the context of his (2nd) team turning up with 12 players and being filled up to the full 15 by their opponents, at the lowest level of senior rugby here.

He is a referee himself too. Trust me, your thoughts are unfounded.

 

[The Fat]

I'm sorry if it sounds like that, but this was in the context of his (2nd) team turning up with 12 players and being filled up to the full 15 by their opponents, at the lowest level of senior rugby here.

He is a referee himself too. Trust me, your thoughts are unfounded.

Fair enough then

 

[ChrisR]

Re. the OP. I think that you have to differentiate between "appeal" and "dissent". The examples in the OP are "appeals" and, even tho they can be distracting and irritating, they don't warrant the same response as dissent. An immediate call to "Play on" is a way of saying "I saw it and it's not illegal/material."

However, when there is a constant stream of appeals for offences that you have "missed" it does become a form of dissent as the player is verbally disagreeing with your decision to 'play on'. Time to call in the skipper and the appealer to let them know that the line is about to be crossed and sanctions will be applied.

 

[Pegleg]

Ok, you seem to be misprepresenting what I wrote. This may be because you are unaware between the difference of "suggesting" and "telling". The word I used earlier was "triggered".

The coach in question suggested they knew the law, as per barker below. Since I had told him I was about to do the PMB, I didn't acquiesce to his suggestion at the time.

After proceeding with the front row PMB, we had a game with no real scrum issues, which is common now the blight of "the hit" has been removed.

I did not have any further discussion with this coach after that match, nor at any other time about that specific issue with him. I may see him tomorrow, as it happens, so I can raise the issue.

But to rerail:

Your play with words is admirable. However a coach is in no position to Suggest / tell or trigger you to act outside what your union (refs' dept) require from you. Thank you but my understanding of English is just fine. The nuances of English may be lost up you. It is however, my mother tongue. A coach "suggesting" is in 99% of occasions Telling you what he wants you to do. To think otherwise is somewhat naive.

And I reiterate you are best asking the referees' department rather than a players' coach for instructions as to what is expected of by your union. A coaches' "wants" may differ greatly from what the Union "wants". You answer to the union NOT a coach.

 

[Blackberry]

"The nuances of English may be lost up you". That's a classic, bad luck there Pegleg.
Did Rushworth give a PMB despite the coach's suggestion? As I understand it he did.

 

[Rushforth]

And I reiterate you are best asking the referees' department rather than a players' coach for instructions as to what is expected of by your union.

Last year I went to our monthly referees meeting for a change. Coaches were also invited and were roughly equally represented. The reason I went (50km drive) is that the main technical issue presented and discussed was how to be consistent at the scrum. As it happens I'll be going to the monthly meeting a week on Monday, when the scrum will be presented from a coaching perspective (i.e. more than just the front row PMB).

To return to the subject at hand, during the match and for the hour before it, the only influence dissent will have on me is an extra 10m if it is a penalty, or perhaps a reversal of a penalty if players feel the urge to tell me what the offence was. I will listen to respectful suggestions from captains before scrums or line-outs, or at half time, and although I may remember what coaches suggest for future reference, I am not going to change my refereeing style on the day. So that day I did, and I still sometimes do, FR PMB.

P.S. Thank you for the compliment. When my father played for the Dutch against Belgium - before I was a twinkle in his eye - he was complimented by the referee, a British Army officer stationed in Germany, on his English. My father replied that he had gone to school in England.

 

[Pegleg]

No complement and you still avoid stating what the instruction is from the referees' leadership in the Netherlands. Do you actually have an answer or not?

 

[Pegleg]

PS: I'm not sure what your father's education has to do with it. Sorry.

 

[Browner]

Last year I went to our monthly referees meeting for a change. Coaches were also invited and were roughly equally represented. The reason I went (50km drive) is that the main technical issue presented and discussed was how to be consistent at the scrum. As it happens I'll be going to the monthly meeting a week on Monday, when the scrum will be presented from a coaching perspective (i.e. more than just the front row PMB).

To return to the subject at hand, during the match and for the hour before it, the only influence dissent will have on me is an extra 10m if it is a penalty, or perhaps a reversal of a penalty if players feel the urge to tell me what the offence was. I will listen to respectful suggestions from captains before scrums or line-outs, or at half time, and although I may remember what coaches suggest for future reference, I am not going to change my refereeing style on the day. So that day I did, and I still sometimes do, FR PMB.

P.S. Thank you for the compliment. When my father played for the Dutch against Belgium - before I was a twinkle in his eye - he was complimented by the referee, a British Army officer stationed in Germany, on his English. My father replied that he had gone to school in England.

* It couldn't have been a IRB meeting then ..... epper:

* hearsay !

:biggrin: