No let up in dissent

Rushforth


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No complement and you still avoid stating what the instruction is from the referees' leadership in the Netherlands. Do you actually have an answer or not?

I have an answer to everything. Whether I am right or not is a different matter. I will discuss with senior referees a week tomorrow at the monthly meeting.

Would you like me to ask my father tonight if he did a PMB at all matches? He was passed over for selection for refereeing international matches in his (refereeing) prime, but was chairman of the Dutch elite referee selection panel after that door had closed.
 

Pegleg

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All I'm asking for is a straight answer. Does your union require a PMB? YES or NO? How difficult is it to answer that question?
 

Blackberry


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I'm not sure OUR union requires a FR PMB, the requirement, or is it the very strong advice, comes from elsewhere doesn't it? I think you have latched (firmly) onto an irrelevant question. Here's an idea, can you find out where the imperative for us to have a FR PMB comes from? This might help you arrive at an answer.
 

Rushforth


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Note that Pegleg may not be in England or other 4N (home countries).

I checked with my father, and between 1960 and 2000 he did not do FR PMB.

Mind you, dissent is something he never had to deal with before the professional era.
 

Pegleg

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It really is a simple question. Why do you not want to answer it? I'm not bothered what the answer is I would just like you to answer the question.

The point behind my question and other posts is that you need to listen to your "bosses" and not coaches or ex refs for your instruction on what is required.

I assume you will not / can not (that begs the question: "why not?" of course) your call. .
 

Pegleg

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I'm not sure OUR union requires a FR PMB, the requirement, or is it the very strong advice, comes from elsewhere doesn't it? I think you have latched (firmly) onto an irrelevant question. Here's an idea, can you find out where the imperative for us to have a FR PMB comes from? This might help you arrive at an answer.

My union insistes on a PMB others may not. All I've asked Rushforth is what do his bosses require as mandatory. I understand that in England it is "optional". Here it is not. It seem strange that Rushforth does not know what is required of him by his union.
 

Rushforth


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It seem strange that Rushforth does not know what is required of him by his union.

You might think it seems strange.

What my union requires:
1) Referee to make a clear mark where the scrum is (right ear of hooker to be above this on "bind")
2) Call crouch only when 2nd row is fully ready, and 3rd row also in a position to bind on 2nd row players for the scrum
3) Bind: both front rows "ear-to-ear" with shoulders level within each front row
4) Set: maximum "hit" to be the distance from ear to shoulder
5) Feed by SH: straight down the middle, no delay but also not "immediate on yes 9". Straight down the middle defined as "if part of the ball is over the chalk" if it happens to be on a convenient line.
6) Back-row players not to unbind before the ball is out of the scrum.

This is required at all levels of all players, and has been since early last season (so for about a year now).

My apologies that my union succeeded in communicating to both referees and players of all levels what was expected. My apologies that at the end of last season when I asked the front rows after PMB if they had any questions, and the only question was "when is the ball out of the ruck?" every time. Because they had the same PMB consistently every week last season, and frankly didn't want to "enjoy the hit", which in my opinion was the only reason PMBs were essential for a period.

Pegleg, I don't mind arguing on points of matter, and I don't take it personally when I am arguing an issue and might choose to feel insulted. "It seem strange ... does not know" could be interpreted as a character attack (ad hominem). I'd rather interpret it as me usually being too lazy to clarify my position unless fully questioned, and I hope that the first half of this post is enough to convince you that I do have at least somewhat of a clue about what I speak of.

Could you please share your union, Pegleg? You have posted here almost 300 times here in the last two months, sometimes very valuably.
 

Blackberry


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Pegleg, is it your union that makes this requirement? Are you sure its not actually your society? Can you show us what your union said?
 

Pegleg

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So you long winded answer is merely to state that the Union in the Netherlands does not require a PMB. Now why could you not have said that first time round?

The fact that you chose not to answer the question despite several requests that you do so suggest there may be reasons why you were not prepared to do so. As simple answer first time would have avoided the question and your perceived "insult". Answering questions without avoidance is very simple and avoids confusion.

I have already posted where I ref. West Wales is the repeat answer.
 

Pegleg

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Pegleg, is it your union that makes this requirement? Are you sure its not actually your society? Can you show us what your union said?


I am very sure that it's the WRU and not my society that makes this demand.
To clearly state the position in Wales (I do not know of the regulations in any other country)

The Welsh rugby union makes the demand that a PMB is done every game. This is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis. I do not have it in writing so sorry I cannot proved written evidence. You may take my word on not as is your choice. If you wish I'm sure a tweet to St Nigel will confirm. He has, on more than one occasion, made the instruction very clear. It is re iterated in out Level one training and during the Level 2 training.


I have refereed many sides from England, France and the Netherlands. None have shown any surprise at the Brief. In fact most of those sides have asked when I will be doing the PMB. They clearly expect one to be done.
 
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Blackberry


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Pegleg, could you get a precise answer about what you believe the WRU requires, and the expected content of the Union mandated PMB?
I am struggling to believe that if it is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis it is not in writing. Can you come back to us with this please? It will be very useful. I am guessing that something this important you will have it instantly to hand.

Edit: I've noticed your post now says you "are very certain" which I hope you will forgive me is not the same as certain. Let us know what you find.
 
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Rushforth


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So you long winded answer is merely to state that the Union in the Netherlands does not require a PMB. Now why could you not have said that first time round?

No, I have not yet asked for a union opinion on not doing PMB at all times. I will ask so in 8 days time, as I have stated more than once, at our monthly meeting (which I only attend annually).

I cannot answer you with formal clarifications by my local union - and no, Blackberry, we don't have a society as such, sadly - when I have not even asked them yet. That I am guarded in my personal answers online is based on my experience of how to react online, which you cannot know, but even on these forums I was lambasted for sticking to the Welsh definition of the forward pass until I finally gave up (not at all coincidentally at the same time as I stopped worrying about the "hit" in scrums).

Also, I am long-winded at times because I don't have the skill to keep my gab shorter. So there you go. Diolch.
 

crossref


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All of this exchange merely illustrates something we have long known : nowhere is it written what *must* be in a PMB.
 

Phil E


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All of this exchange merely illustrates something we have long known : nowhere is it written what *must* be in a PMB.

It is stated several times In the ELRA that a FR brief is mandatory at all games.
 

Rushforth


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It is stated several times In the ELRA that a FR brief is mandatory at all games.

Has the education at Entry Level been adjusted since the reduction of the hit, on this issue?

Also, this issue is worth a thread of its own.
 

crossref


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Phil E:284598 said:
All of this exchange merely illustrates something we have long known : nowhere is it written what *must* be in a PMB.

It is stated several times In the ELRA that a FR brief is mandatory at all games.

But the ELRA is just one course, that ran for a few years, now defunct, which has never been a pre requisite to be a ref in England. Probably most referees in England have not done the ELRA.
 

Phil E


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Has the education at Entry Level been adjusted since the reduction of the hit, on this issue?

Also, this issue is worth a thread of its own.

No, it's exactly the same. No matter what the Scrum Engagement sequence is, it must be communicated to the FR players before each game.
 

crossref


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Phil E:284602 said:
Has the education at Entry Level been adjusted since the reduction of the hit, on this issue?

Also, this issue is worth a thread of its own.

No, it's exactly the same. No matter what the Scrum Engagement sequence is, it must be communicated to the FR players before each game.

But Phil, where is that written?
 
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