No let up in dissent

[Pegleg]

Pegleg, could you get a precise answer about what you believe the WRU requires, and the expected content of the Union mandated PMB?
I am struggling to believe that if it is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis it is not in writing. Can you come back to us with this please? It will be very useful. I am guessing that something this important you will have it instantly to hand.

Edit: I've noticed your post now says you "are very certain" which I hope you will forgive me is not the same as certain. Let us know what you find.

TO clarify I will rephrase my answer

I am very sure that it's the WRU and not my society that makes this demand.

To clearly state the position in Wales (I do not know of the regulations in any other country)
​

The Welsh rugby union makes the demand that a PMB is done every game. This is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis. I do not have it in writing so sorry I cannot proved written evidence. You may take my word on not as is your choice. If you wish I'm sure a tweet to St Nigel will confirm. He has, on more than one occasion, made the instruction very clear. It is reiterated in our Level one training and during the Level 2 training.


I have refereed many sides from England, France and the Netherlands. None have shown any surprise at the Brief. In fact most of those sides have asked when I will be doing the PMB. They clearly expect one to be done.

Or to put it another way:

In Wales it is mandatory.

As I said, as you will know from reading my post:

1; I do not have it in writing. I fail to understand why you ask for it in writing when you have already be told I do not have it in that form.

2; I said very sure. (the word very being used to add weight to sure. Although it really in not required. Of course one is either sure or not. Very certainly is not used to diminish the strength of "sure")

3; The essential part of the brief is the Front row engagement process (currently CBS). Anything else is optional.

4; As stated already, but I will repeat as you seem not to be clear, I do not have this written down in any official communication. It is repeated at a minimum once a season and at virtually every discussion of refereeing the scrum (which is at least once a year). I would estimate it comes up, formally, at a minimum of 5 meeting a season. It comes up often with new refs asking what others put in their PMB.

As also stated. Them's the facts here in Wales. You may chose to belief me or not. that is your choice blackberry. But don't bother asking for what I've told you I can't provide.

 

[Pegleg]

"The nuances of English may be lost up you". That's a classic, bad luck there Pegleg.

Who says it was an error?

 

[Pegleg]

Are you sure English is your mother tongue?

My mother spoke it always. I speak both English and Welsh. I type badly.

 

[Rushforth]

Who says it was an error?

I assumed it was an error, which is why I didn't comment on that or other typos. (ComplEment means to ... never mind, you can look it up).

My knowledge of the English vernacular is jaded. Are you trying to suggest that "Up yours" is what you meant? If you are joking, don't.

 

[Pegleg]

No need thanks I know what both complement and compliment mean thanks. I also answer questions I'm asked. I can't help it if you don't like the answers.

 

[Pegleg]

Final thought: In the Netherlands, surely you have some form of cascading information / directives down from the IRB / your National Union to individual referees. If you do I suggest it is to them you look for instruction rather than a coach (even an ex national one) or retired refs who are probably not on the "secret email" mailing list. Whether you take this suggestion on board is your choice.

I think I'll leave this thread to others now. Otherwise we will go round and round.

 

[Rushforth]

No need thanks I know what both complement and compliment mean thanks. I also answer questions I'm asked. I can't help it if you don't like the answers.

And I can't help it if you are incapable of distinguishing answers from answerer. I have said more than once that I will seek guidance 8 days from now, which you have chosen to ignore.

 

[Rushforth]

In the Netherlands, surely you have some form of cascading information

Yes, as per the combined referee/coaching briefing October 2013 which I attended, and as per the next scrum session the first Monday of November (8 days from now).

There are no secret e-mails here, and there is much to be improved upon, but the simple fact is that the newest engagement sequence is no longer new, the players at all levels are aware of it, and that my 20 second mini-rebrief at the first scrum seems to work may not be statistically supported. One collapsed today (wet weather last week, soft ground), which means that in the last seven weekends, so eleven matches, so I've had one scrum collapse in something like 15 hours of play.

 

[Blackberry]

Who says it was an error?

Me!

And you are being a tad unreasonable demanding hard evidence from one member while being unable to offer the same level yourself.
I understand that Rushworth always did do a PMB, that like you he cannot be sure if its from the union or the societies, so that about wraps it up for me.

 

[Pegleg]

Me!

And you are being a tad unreasonable demanding hard evidence from one member while being unable to offer the same level yourself.
I understand that Rushworth always did do a PMB, that like you he cannot be sure if its from the union or the societies, so that about wraps it up for me.

Ok one more word.

I asked for an answer not "hard evidence" Rushforth was not willing to give an answer. I have told you that I do not have it in writing and Unlike Rushforth I and Sure / certain / in no fount that it is the WRU that requires a PMB/

So please, if you are wishing to contest my comments please accurately represent my comments. You have changed my wording and put your amended wording in quotation marks. Thereby attributing comments to me that are untrue. You also, despite my posting the same comment twice are unwill in to se that I clearly states that I am sure of the origin of the instruction that We in Wales must give a PMB Here was the wording in my last comment on the matter "I am very sure that it's the WRU and not my society that makes this demand.

To clearly state the position in Wales (I do not know of the regulations in any other country)
​

The Welsh rugby union makes the demand that a PMB is done every game. This is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis."


How clearer do you need my position to be stated? Those word state unequivocally that the origin of the demand is the WRU.

 

[winchesterref]

My mother spoke it always. I speak both English and Welsh. I type badly.

Where is that tongue in cheek smiley...

 

[crossref]

Blackberry has it right. Everyone *knows* we have to do a pmb, but if there is anything specific that must be said, it isn't documented

 

[crossref]

But Phil, where is that written?

In the course notes given to all candidates.

That's a defunct course that was never mandatory for refs, and the course notes are not available on line.

So as a ref in England right now today, if I want to look up what MUST be said this season at a pmb, if anything, where would I look? The answer is I can't, it's completely undocumented.

 

[colesy]

That's a defunct course that was never mandatory for refs, and the course notes are not available on line.

So as a ref in England right now today, if I want to look up what MUST be said this season at a pmb, if anything, where would I look? The answer is I can't, it's completely undocumented.

Unless there's an RFU regulation that permits a deviation from the IRB's take on things, then perhaps the IRB's guidance trumps everything. Taken from Rugby Refereeing in Practice (albeit 2004) in the section headed BRIEFING TEAMS AND INSPECTION OF BOOTS: "Scrum engagement. Remind the teams of the “Engagement” sequence and that the ball won’t be allowed into the scrum until the scrum is steady and square, to ensure the safety of the players in the scrum."

 

[Pegleg]

Interesting. It would be worth it knowing id the IRB had amended that document and If any dispensation has been given to ignore a governing body document in this respect. Also does it say that the briefing is mandatory?

- - - Updated - - -

I have it somewhere so will look it up later but just wondering if you know.

 

[Browner]

Unless there's an RFU regulation that permits a deviation from the IRB's take on things, then perhaps the IRB's guidance trumps everything. Taken from Rugby Refereeing in Practice (albeit 2004) in the section headed BRIEFING TEAMS AND INSPECTION OF BOOTS: "Scrum engagement. Remind the teams of the “Engagement” sequence and that the ball won’t be allowed into the scrum until the scrum is steady and square, to ensure the safety of the players in the scrum."

Link?

 

[colesy]

Link?

Link here

 

[colesy]

Also does it say that the briefing is mandatory?

I don't see the words "mandatory" anywhere. However, the document certainly seems to expect a briefing to be carried out.

As with the other posters, I've not seen it in writing from the RFU except in the ELRA 1 and 2 documents. It's certainly something we are reminded about when discussing the scrum at Society meetings.

 

[Phil E]

That's a defunct course that was never mandatory for refs, and the course notes are not available on line.

So as a ref in England right now today, if I want to look up what MUST be said this season at a pmb, if anything, where would I look? The answer is I can't, it's completely undocumented.

It's the same in the new course. It hasn't changed.
If you want to see the documentation.....sign up for the new course.

 

[SimonSmith]

Even if it isn't mandatory, it's still important/useful.

1. It does help set safety front and center of scrummaging.
2. It's a chance to 'sell' yourself and your style to the players - build a dynamic of sorts with them
3. A chance to get an observation of them. I knew going into the first scrum what my challenges would be, because I could see that one FR was going to be engaging significantly lower than the bigger and fatter opposition. I knew what to look for and to manage then.

I see very little downside to a FR PMB, and lots of upside.