No let up in dissent

Taffy


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Yesterday, University game.

Normal pre match chat. Tell captains they need to control discipline, so we won't be having any appealing or shouting out or trying to ref the game. Everything comes through them. They of course agree.

A university team playing in Purple

2nd minute appealing from gobby scrum half. I remind captain what we spoke about.
4th minute "He's got his hands on ref". Penalty
I then tell captain to get a grip
6th minute "What about the offside ref?"
Yellow card
12th minute another yellow for an appeal and hands in the air......

Was this the point where I should have binned the captain?

The Green Team opposition wised up straight away with the captain telling me "Everything alright sir?" We are keeping our discipline aren't we? They were as clean as a whistle, I have reffed them several times before.

Result was that Green hammered Purple despite being well below them in skill and league position. At least three of their trys came from penalties for dissent.

There was quite a bit more chat and the Purple captain just didn't get it.

A good lesson for me, but as always was there anything else I could have done?
 

Rushforth


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If Purple captain didn't make any direct comments of that nature to you, then not only is there no reason to bin him, but all the more reason to sympathise with the poor bugger.

I'm too lenient in the other direction, mind.
 

Ian_Cook


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Sounds to me like you have copped the legacy of previous referees not being tough enough on the Purple team.

Ask
Tell
Penalse
Bin

That is pretty much what you did. If they don't get it, just keep penalising and binning them (ultimately RC if needs be) until they do. That is all you can do. You cannot force them to stop. but creating a disincentive for them to continue their behaviour is the biggest tool you have in the toolbox.

You might consider reporting the problems you had to your association/society


PS: and Rushforth is right, binning the captain is not an option unless he is also dissenting!
 
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crossref


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Taffy:284376 said:
Yesterday, University game.

Normal pre match chat. Tell captains they need to control discipline, so we won't be having any appealing or shouting out or trying to ref the game. Everything comes through them. They of course agree.

Does saying this in the PMB actually achieve anything?
 

Phil E


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Does saying this in the PMB actually achieve anything?

Yes, it puts the onus on them.....Captain you told me in the brief that you were going to deal with this.
It might not stop it happening, but it gives you the moral high ground by putting the monkey on their back.
In other words, it's their problem, not yours, you have no option, your not being nasty, just dealing with what they said they would deal with for you, but failed to do so.

I am a great believer in passing responsibility to others, it makes refereeing easier.

I.e. "The law says, that offence is a Yellow Card". Not my choice, it's the law. They can argue with you, but not with the law, because it is faceless. Likewise, they can potentially argue with you calling desent, but if they said they would deal with it, then it's no longer your problem; it's theirs.
 
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crossref


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Yes, but does it actually, in practice, reduce the level of dissent?

Or does it give the message that you are expecting it?

If told you last game I warned the two captains not to allow any fighting, you might think 'aha local derby , two team with a history of fighting'
 

Ian_Cook


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Yes, but does it actually, in practice, reduce the level of dissent?

Or does it give the message that you are expecting it?

If told you last game I warned the two captains not to allow any fighting, you might think 'aha local derby , two team with a history of fighting'

It may or may not. That will depend on the attitude of the team (or teams)


As PhilE says, it places the onus on them to maintain the behaviour of their teams, so that when you get the first gobby 9 trying to referee the game, you can remind his skipper that he was going to take control of that aspect of their behaviour.
 

andyscott


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Does saying this in the PMB actually achieve anything?

No as you can tell, why tell the captains that? I have never heard a ref say, ah dong worry about just have loads off ill discipline today.

Telling them about it pre match makes you look like you dont know what you are doing. Go in total professional, FR brief and leave. They will think automatically you are a good ref as you dont need to tell them all of that bollocks ;)

1st bit of appealing time off, bollock the player in front of both captains.
next PK
Next YC
Next YC with a promise of a red (and carry it out).

Never bin the captain, or re warn. They have had their chance and they know their responsibilities.
 

Simon Thomas


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Taffy - also play devil's advocate and ask yourself why did they ignore you ?

Was your pre-match communication the most effective and appropriate ? Could a different approach or even words be needed for youth, schools, Uni and adult players ? Are you too quick to be confrontational ? Do you vary the communication methods - quiet word on ear rather than authoritarian demand that everyone can hear ?

Referee management skills are crucial and cover verbal, non-verbal techniques. The result is how you effectively control the game, the players and other match participants, which needs you to be flexible and adaptable to what is in front of you.

From what you say in the OP you could have escalated far too quickly and given a very fast early yellow card. But don't beat yourself up, it happens to all of us !

Here is an extract from a recent report for a L 6 referee on exchange in Devon !

"COMMUNICATION
Referee x has a good presence both on and off the field and communicates well with his voice, signals and whistle. Today however he was a little too tolerant of some players (especially the Devon Club A fly-half) who were constantly appealing for decisions and questioning his decisions who should have been dealt with more firmly."

"In today’s game X showed he is quite capable and competent at level 6 he has a good attitude and is certainly fit enough. He has the potential to go higher up the refereeing ladder especially if he can take on board his positioning and management issue that were apparent in todays game."
​​​​​​​​​​​​

​​​​​​​​​​​​
 

DrSTU


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Somewhat agree and disagree. I keep it for the coin toss and tell captains 'discipline is through you, if you can't deal with it I will' sends a clear enough message without being too word. Then I agree with Andy, 1st one, peep, we discussed discipline speech, PK... escalate as appropriate.

No as you can tell, why tell the captains that? I have never heard a ref say, ah dong worry about just have loads off ill discipline today.

Telling them about it pre match makes you look like you dont know what you are doing. Go in total professional, FR brief and leave. They will think automatically you are a good ref as you dont need to tell them all of that bollocks ;)

1st bit of appealing time off, bollock the player in front of both captains.
next PK
Next YC
Next YC with a promise of a red (and carry it out).

Never bin the captain, or re warn. They have had their chance and they know their responsibilities.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Somewhat agree and disagree. I keep it for the coin toss and tell captains 'discipline is through you, if you can't deal with it I will' sends a clear enough message without being too word. Then I agree with Andy, 1st one, peep, we discussed discipline speech, PK... escalate as appropriate.

I agree with the good Doctor and do similalrly. I risk them thinking I don't know what I'm doing - and confirm it once the whistle goes.:biggrin:
 

Taffy


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Quite inclined to try out andy Scott method and see what reaction it gets.......

always up up for learning.......
 

ddjamo


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they have already heard it before...do refs think that their tongues are so magic that words alone will snap the players, through the captain, into 80min of compliance?

less is better. it builds trust. stand tall and confident. say few words and get out of there. I prefer feedback from captains like, "first guy ever to treat me with respect and not talk down to me." empathy and respect vs repeating the same crap they have heard ad nauseam.

how would you guys like it that every time you showed up to a match there was an assessor there that repeated the scrum cadence to you as if you had never heard it before? or went over the tackle sequence with you 20 times a season? all the while you are managing those aspects of play - but they just say it to you anyway? that's what a pmb is to a player.
 

Ronald

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This is a tough issue...I tend to tailor my approach depending on the level and age of the players I am reffing. You certainly can't handle a 2nd team club player the same as you do an u/14 boy. Luckily for me, most teams I get to ref I have reffed last season, or sometimes earlier in the current season, so you tend to know when and where to expect trouble. I also like Andy Scott's approach, very similar to mine.
 

andyscott


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Thats how i deal with appealing.

For dissent, march 10 straight away.
Time off, thats the last time I march someone skipper.
Then Yellow anything else.

They learn.

I apply this to all game I do, this season at level 4 through to level 9. They all respond, despite people thinking they wont at lower levels. They actually respect you more for applying a higher standard. Think back to school, who do you respect the most, the teacher that was tough, but good, or the one who was soft?? You are not there during the 80mins to be their mate.
 

DrSTU


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Interesting one for you, do you still march the 10 when it's a slow penalty? I can't remember the last time I plodded 10m forward at a slow penalty situation like dissent. I'd rather deal with it there and then.
Thats how i deal with appealing.

For dissent, march 10 straight away.
Time off, thats the last time I march someone skipper.
Then Yellow anything else.

They learn.

I apply this to all game I do, this season at level 4 through to level 9. They all respond, despite people thinking they wont at lower levels. They actually respect you more for applying a higher standard. Think back to school, who do you respect the most, the teacher that was tough, but good, or the one who was soft?? You are not there during the 80mins to be their mate.
 

andyscott


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Interesting one for you, do you still march the 10 when it's a slow penalty? I can't remember the last time I plodded 10m forward at a slow penalty situation like dissent. I'd rather deal with it there and then.

Yeah I do, its about selling my YC next. The whole crowd, coaching team and players switch to supporting me and turn against the dissenter ;)
March forward then bollocking, sells your decision for me. YMMV
 

DrSTU


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Hmm, I think that marching forward and then stopping somewhat removes the effectiveness of moving the 10m as you're taking away the chaotic benefit of the offending side having to rearrange quickly and thus, the quick tap becomes less effective for the attacking team.

But as you say, each to their own.
Yeah I do, its about selling my YC next. The whole crowd, coaching team and players switch to supporting me and turn against the dissenter ;)
March forward then bollocking, sells your decision for me. YMMV
 

Accylad


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Hmm, I think that marching forward and then stopping somewhat removes the effectiveness of moving the 10m as you're taking away the chaotic benefit of the offending side having to rearrange quickly and thus, the quick tap becomes less effective for the attacking team. .

But what it also does is communicates the fact that you wont tolerate it to BOTH teams. I find the team walking forward 10 are happy to be 10 metres on and the captain and senior players usually communicate the message for you to their lot while you bollock the dissenter....
 

SimonSmith


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PMB to captains - especially College:

"Discipline is yours. I'm happy to explain; I won't be debated and I won't be told what I'm missing. We all clear?"
 
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