Taken into 22?

[OB..]

I have just come across the following in the SA referees excellent Duty Ref series:

Naas Ferreira asks about the kick into touch that goes out outside of the 22 and the quick throw-in is taken inside the 22. Marius says that it depends where the ball came to a standstill. If it stopped outside of the 22 and was then taken back, no gain of ground was possible from a kick directly into touch. But if the ball stopped behind the 22 and was then thrown in quickly from inside the 22, there could be gain of ground if the ball was then kicked directly into touch from within the 22.
Marius Jonker http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/1526695.htm

My understanding is that in England what counts is where the ball crosses the touchline. I do not see Marius' view as being practicable.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Marius' answer does not reflect the consistent advice I heard from a wide range of RFU Dept staff, assessors, and referees at many different levels.

Everyone says it is where the ball crosses the line - I can think of no logical justitification for it being where the ball stops.

It could be fun at council recreation grounds, when the QT is likely to be taken on a neighbouring pitch !

 

[Simon Thomas]

Having looked at Marius' Duty Ref 241 I see that Hampshire's very own assessor John Freter is no 1 questioner ! Nice to see he has fitted in over there.

Also Marius says :

2. Name: PD van der Merwe

Question: Can any substitution take place when a penalty has been awarded but before the penalty is taken?

Thanks

Marius Jonker: Hi PD.

Substitutions does not get done while penalties are taken.

In some cases the team taking a shot at goal might have a player close to the touch-line that could be substituted by not stopping or interfering with play and the guys on the side might get that done quickly. This could also happen if there is an injury break but the ideal is not to do subs at penalty time.

(bet Dean Richards would love a copy of that !)

 

[chopper15]

Many threads were generated on this very subject some months ago. I thought we, sorry, you, came up with a definitive answer. What was it?

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6760&highlight=throw+line

 

[oxped]

Since the line of touch is outside the 22, if you take a quick throw and the ball is then in the 22, then you have decided to put it there thus no gain in ground.

 

[The umpire]

Since the line of touch is outside the 22, if you take a quick throw and the ball is then in the 22, then you have decided to put it there thus no gain in ground.

A clear and unambiguous summary of the position, IMHO.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Just had a definitive answer from RFU Refs Dept, including RFU Laws sub-committee representative (DB to London guys), which is confimed as IRB interpretation.

So Marius is out of step it appears.

 

[beckett50]

SA referee out of step with the rest of the world?

Never come across that before:wow: :chin:

We all remember their interpretation of the CTPE:biggrin:

 

[OB..]

Interesting to note from the historical perspective that this is closer to 19th century practice. When the ball crossed the touch line, the first player to touch it down earned the right for his side to bring the ball back into play (that is why it is called "touch"). This led to significant play/chaos off the pitch and the modern principle was introduced in 1880.

 

[Dixie]

SA referee out of step with the rest of the world?

Never come across that before:wow: :chin:

English ref assuming RFU speaks for the rest of the world? Never come across that before:wow: :chin: Cue Ian's apoplectic rant:biggrin:

 

[Dickie E]

Just had a definitive answer from RFU Refs Dept, including RFU Laws sub-committee representative (DB to London guys), which is confimed as IRB interpretation.

So Marius is out of step it appears.

and what is the definitive answer, Simon?

 

[chopper15]

Originally Posted by oxped
Since the line of touch is outside the 22, if you take a quick throw and the ball is then in the 22, then you have decided to put it there thus no gain in ground.

Ref Umpire; A clear and unambiguous summary of the position, IMHO.



Should he take a QbT on the LoT putting the ball into the 22, you'd be right.

However, I understand the query to be; should the ball go out of play outside the 22 and rolls on still in-touch, into the 22, play is restarted by a QT. Gain in ground?

Awaiting SimonT's verdict. :hap:

 

[The umpire]

However, I understand the query to be; should the ball go out of play outside the 22 and rolls on still in-touch, into the 22, play is restarted by a QT. Gain in ground?

And the answer's still the same. They took it into the 22 so no gain in ground.

You'll be telling me next that if the ball goes out between the 22 and goal line but carries on rolling in touch until it's behind the dead ball line you'd like the option of a scrum back!

Where the ball rolls to when it's in touch is irrelevent to everything (unless it vanishes down a drain - and I'll bet that's happened to someone - cue interesting ball vanishing anecdotes)

 

[chopper15]

And the answer's still the same. They took it into the 22 so no gain in ground.

You'll be telling me next that if the ball goes out between the 22 and goal line but carries on rolling in touch until it's behind the dead ball line you'd like the option of a scrum back!

But 'they' didn't take it back over the 22, umpire, it rolled there.

And you can take a QT up to the goal line . . . even a QbT to a team mate standing in the goal area.

The big ques. is; what if he missed and threw it over the dead ball line? :hap:

Scrum back in line from where he threw it from?

 

[TigerCraig]

The position as per the SA website is what we have been instructed here (by the head of NSW referee education). If the ball is gathered in touch but on or behind the 22, and other requirements for a QT are met, a kick for gain in ground is allowed.

 

[chopper15]

The position as per the SA website is what we have been instructed here (by the head of NSW referee education). If the ball is gathered in touch but on or behind the 22, and other requirements for a QT are met, a kick for gain in ground is allowed.

So, if the ball went thro' the vertical plane of touch outside the 22 and was gathered in touch on or behind the 22, a kick for gain in ground is allowed?

All agreed?

 

[SimonSmith]

No we're not all agreed.

 

[chopper15]

No we're not all agreed.

Thought not.:hap: But what's the answer, please?:wait:

 

[Phil E]

Thought not.:hap: But what's the answer, please?:wait:

The answer is "no".

 

[OB..]

I think the point about the dead ball line is highly relevant. Nobody surely believes that if the ball once in touch rolls past the dead ball line a team can ask for a scrum back? Why should it be different with the 22? Moreover how does anybody judge it, since there is no line out wide.

It also produces the situation where a player will run to stop the ball rolling any further if he can - and somebody else wanting to stop him ... and can he kick it back "outside" the 22 again ... etc.

The straightforward and simple rule is that what counts is where the ball crosses the touchline. SimonThomas has confirmed that:
"Just had a definitive answer from RFU Refs Dept, including RFU Laws sub-committee representative (DB to London guys), which is confimed as IRB interpretation."

Why are we still arguing about it?