[Law] 20.10 behind the kicker at a PK

crossref


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Law 20.10 is odd one

[LAWS]20.10 Other than the placer at a place-kick, the kicker’s team must remain behind the ball until it has been kicked.[/LAWS]

.. because it outlaws most quick taps (where it's often the case that players are in front of the kick)


The corresponding Law for a 22m dropout (12.18) simply makes it clear that that when a DO is taken quickly and players are in front, they are covered by offside laws (must retire, cannot interfere with play until put onside by team mate).. which is sensible.

20.10 needs a similar bit of text covering quick taps
 

chbg


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It only says that they must remain behind the ball. By construct they can only do that if they are behind it originally. So players that are not behind the ball when the PK/FK is awarded, and who do not ever get behind the ball, are subject to Open Play offside. Because the ball is dead before a restart kick can be taken, whilst it is not necessarily for a PK/FK.

:biggrin:
 

crossref


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Well, not really as players who are in front of a PK are actually required to get back behind (unless it's taken quickly).
 

tim White


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Another example of a clear law being 'simplified' in the last re-write.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Well, not really as players who are in front of a PK are actually required to get back behind (unless it's taken quickly).

They are required to "get back and remain" not "remain". The two are not the same.
 

Dickie E


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lots of oddities. This one from Law 3:

[LAWS]A team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. If a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty.[/LAWS]

is it reasonable to infer that the bit in bold only happens if an objection is made? The underlined word would suggest so.
 

Camquin

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If you spot it, you can penalise them under under 3.7.
If a player re-joins or a replacement joins the match without the referee’s permission and the referee believes the player did so to gain an advantage, the player is guilty of misconduct. Sanction: Penalty.
 

SimonSmith


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lots of oddities. This one from Law 3:

[LAWS]A team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. If a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty.[/LAWS]

is it reasonable to infer that the bit in bold only happens if an objection is made? The underlined word would suggest so.

Too tight a reading I think.

My interpretation is that this tells the referee what they must do upon the objection. It doesn't specify that this is the only mechanism by which player numbers will drop.
 

Dickie E


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Too tight a reading I think.

My interpretation is that this tells the referee what they must do upon the objection. It doesn't specify that this is the only mechanism by which player numbers will drop.

but why even mention an objection?

Surely, this would suffice:

If the referee becomes aware that a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty.
 

didds

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^^^ This. Its so obvious as to make on think "WTF" otherwise?
 

Marc Wakeham


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but why even mention an objection?

Surely, this would suffice:

If the referee becomes aware that a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty.

Possibly because until the "captain's challenge" appeared in the trials. This is the only instance when a captain my bring a "wrongdoing" to the referee's attention?

"ref He's offiside!"

"Thanks Captain leave the referrering to me !"*

as opposed to:

"Ref they have 16 players"

Ref counts up to check.

Juat a thought.


* Amend to suit yopur own style.
 

crossref


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They are required to "get back and remain" not "remain". The two are not the same.

so where's the Law saying they are required to "get back and remain" ?

There isn't one. The Law just says remain, which (obviously) includes get back and remain.

kinda my point really. If they are required to get back and remain then there is no quick tap possible
 
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OB..


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so where's the Law saying they are required to "get back and remain" ?

There isn't one. The Law just says remain, which (obviously) includes get back and remain.

kinda my point really. If they are required to get back and remain then there is no quick tap possible
[LAWS]Offside: A positional offence meaning a player can take no part in the game without being liable to sanction.[/LAWS]
[LAWS]10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player:[/LAWS](my colouring).

A player is not penalised merely for being offside. He must be offside AND ... something else.
 

Dickie E


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lots of oddities. This one from Law 3:

[LAWS]A team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. If a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty.[/LAWS]

is it reasonable to infer that the bit in bold only happens if an objection is made? The underlined word would suggest so.

bugger me if this didn't happen to me today ... 1st time in 30 years!
 

crossref


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[LAWS]Offside: A positional offence meaning a player can take no part in the game without being liable to sanction.[/LAWS]
[LAWS]10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player:[/LAWS](my colouring).

A player is not penalised merely for being offside. He must be offside AND ... something else.

exactly so - offside players in general play do NOT have to get back behind the kicker (merely not advance, and not interfere with play)

So at a PK where's the Law that says players must get back behind the kick?
 

Volun-selected


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exactly so - offside players in general play do NOT have to get back behind the kicker (merely not advance, and not interfere with play)

So at a PK where's the Law that says players must get back behind the kick?

Looking at 10.4.c doesn’t the quick tap put the teammates offside (emphasis mine)?
[LAWS] 10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
a. Interferes with play; or
b. Moves forwards towards the ball; or
c. Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate ...
[/LAWS]

If so would make it only a “must” for a PK taken as place kick or punt to touch and kicker’s team must be back behind except for someone holding the ball if needed for place kick since we have the specific scenario listed . For a tap and go, get back onside and do not interfere?
 

crossref


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Looking at 10.4.c doesn’t the quick tap put the teammates offside (emphasis mine)?
[LAWS] 10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
a. Interferes with play; or
b. Moves forwards towards the ball; or
c. Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate ...
[/LAWS]

If so would make it only a “must” for a PK taken as place kick or punt to touch and kicker’s team must be back behind except for someone holding the ball if needed for place kick since we have the specific scenario listed . For a tap and go, get back onside and do not interfere?

yes that's way we ref it.

the issue I was pointing out is that
- for every kick other than a quick tap, all players are required to get behind the kicker.
- the law that requires them to get behind has to be 20.10 , there is no other law
But then 20.10 would seem to apply to ALL PKs, it doesn't give any exclusion for quick taps


the law SHOULD read something like 12.18 - the equivalent law for 22m DO
 
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chbg


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Looking at 10.4.c doesn’t the quick tap put the teammates offside (emphasis mine)?
[LAWS] 10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
a. Interferes with play; or
b. Moves forwards towards the ball; or
c. Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate ...
[/LAWS]

If so would make it only a “must” for a PK taken as place kick or punt to touch and kicker’s team must be back behind except for someone holding the ball if needed for place kick since we have the specific scenario listed . For a tap and go, get back onside and do not interfere?

For me, you are not reading the whole paragraph and coming to an incorrect understanding, misled by poor drafting. Para 10.4c has always been about the 10m offside Law, indeed it is only recently that "behind an onside teammate" has been included. It does NOT mean that every offside player at a kick has to retire behind an on-side teamate, otherwise what is the point of 10.4b?

The full wording of 10.4c is:

[LAWS]Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down.[/LAWS]

So (my interpretation): if you were offside at the kick and are within 10m of where the ball is going to be caught/land (even if hitting the goal post or crossbar) then you must either get behind an on-side player or retire 10m from where the ball is going to land. (Don't forget a kick can go much less than 10m itself, so this is where getting behind an on-side player comes into play.

If you were offside at the kick, and not within 10m of where it is going to be caught/land, then 10.4b applies - do not MOVE FORWARD towards the ball.
 

Camquin

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The 2014 law book made it clear that it is not a 10m circle round the player catching the ball, it is 10 metre rectangle all the way across the pitch.
Under the old 11.4 (b) a player in that rectangle could not be put onside by an advancing onside player.
 

chbg


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The 2014 law book made it clear that it is not a 10m circle round the player catching the ball, it is 10 metre rectangle all the way across the pitch.
Under the old 11.4 (b) a player in that rectangle could not be put onside by an advancing onside player.

Sorry that you interpreted it that way. It is indeed shorthand for 'within 10m all the way across the field of play', as most referees have forgotten that it could ever have been read as a 10m circle.
 
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