2017 v 2018 Definition of Charge Down

[ChuckieB]

Club refs? Not members of a society? Done basic ELRA - hopefully this will have explained the differences and nuances etc...

didds

Those who are in RFU land might need to be reminded that RFU course is developmental and not a forum for hashing out questions of law. However, I am sure there are many attending who would like it to be so!

Only by engaging in activities beyond the minimum requirements might you expect to gain those finer nuances.

 

[crossref]

Some of the differences are nuanced
Other differences are quite clear , not nuanced at all

 

[didds]

Those who are in RFU land might need to be reminded that RFU course is developmental and not a forum for hashing out questions of law. However, I am sure there are many attending who would like it to be so!

Only by engaging in activities beyond the minimum requirements might you expect to gain those finer nuances.

fair enough.

So back in reality, those people that are attracted to be a club ref to help out, but not become a member of a society or take society appointments, won;t understand the nuances and will presumably happily run around without the understanding of what was in the 2017 book and ref to the 2018 book. Which may or may not confuse players and coaches.

whatever.

didds

 

[OB..]

Which I find very intriguing .. the email you have received from the Society takes priority over the Law Book

For me the order is the opposite
1 the 2018 Law Book
2 if the 2018 Law Book is not clear, then refer to the 2017 Law Book for guidance (eg the options on a knock on into touch)

How long will you continue to regard the 2017 Law Book as primary ? Will it overide the 2019 and 2020 Law Books ? Can the Laws ever be changed again ?

This sort of wild exaggeration does not help. It is obvious that if WR state that a law has been changed, then it has been changed.

Unfortunately the word is that the 2018 law book does not make any changes to the laws. A legalistic approach to the new wording is being used to claim that it is inconsistent with the 2017 book. Is that any more of a problem than the fact that everybody simply ignores some of the laws anyway?

The real practical problem is that players, who rarely read the laws, will have the understanding that there have been no changes, and so will continue to play to the same laws as before. We don't do any good to the game by trying to be clever.

 

[crossref]

Shrug .
You say a legalistic view , but after someone throws the ball into Tig you have to make a mark for the PK you have to make a choice .. in line with the offence (current law book ) or 15m in (last year's law book )

 

[OB..]

Shrug .
You say a legalistic view , but after someone throws the ball into Tig you have to make a mark for the PK you have to make a choice .. in line with the offence (current law book ) or 15m in (last year's law book )

How many players would know either version? They just accept what the referee says (and some of them are just guessing ...).

 

[crossref]

How many players would know either version? They just accept what the referee says (and some of them are just guessing ...).

I don't understand what you are getting at ? Are you saying that it doesn't matter whetjer the referee makes the correct decision because the palyers don't know anyway ?

I disagree , the referee should know the law and make the correct decision . That's kind of the whole point of him

 

[crossref]

I have added this one -- which I do agree is nuanced -- to the table

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UzYvtcl03eG7xN13VCwboOyfC0yATNdxgQ7_N1slxEc/edit?usp=sharing

 

[leaguerefaus]

Where there are inconsistencies (and not just one that comes down to an interpretation of how it is read), I would say you have made a law error if you are not going by the 2018 version. Regardless, WR have made multiple problems by trying to solve one - typical!

 

[OB..]

the referee should know the law and make the correct decision .

As I have pointed out, there are situations where neither you nor any other referee actually follows the law. We are not dealing with a law court, but a game of rugby, where a certain amount of pragmatism has always been used.

 

[crossref]

I am confused ..
So does this mean the referee is free , in your mind , to follow either the 2018 book, or the 2017 book, as his is preference, and either is Ok ?
Because earlier you said the 2017 book supersedes the 2018 book, and we should follow the 2017

 

[ChuckieB]

We are several weeks into the Super Rugby season. I am suprised we are not yet hearing of challenges to understanding of the 2018 Laws.

Could be just that no such examples have arisen.

 

[OB..]

I am confused ..
So does this mean the referee is free , in your mind , to follow either the 2018 book, or the 2017 book, as his is preference, and either is Ok ?
Because earlier you said the 2017 book supersedes the 2018 book, and we should follow the 2017

I find this legalistic quibbling (mainly on relatively obscure aspects) of little value.
Where there is an interpretation of the 2018 book that can be aligned with the 2017 book, it seems obvious we should accept that.

Otherwise we have been put in an awkward position, given that there are not supposed to have been any changes. Few players at our level will be aware that there are any problems, so I expect referees to be empathetic and pragmatic rather than dumping things on the players.

 

[crossref]

I find this legalistic quibbling (mainly on relatively obscure aspects) of little value.
Where there is an interpretation of the 2018 book that can be aligned with the 2017 book, it seems obvious we should accept that.

Otherwise we have been put in an awkward position, given that there are not supposed to have been any changes. Few players at our level will be aware that there are any problems, so I expect referees to be empathetic and pragmatic rather than dumping things on the players.

OB you are trying yourself in knots!

Why make this so complicated?

The clear and obvious answer is that the Laws of Rugby are what is written in the 2018 Law Book

How could it be otherwise?

(Where the 2018 Law Book isn't clear, then of course refer to the 2017 Law Book for help )

 

[OB..]

OB you are trying yourself in knots!

Why make this so complicated?

The clear and obvious answer is that the Laws of Rugby are what is written in the 2018 Law Book

How could it be otherwise?

(Where the 2018 Law Book isn't clear, then of course refer to the 2017 Law Book for help )

You are too simplistic.

It has been pointed out that (a) the 2018 law book is not supposed to contain any changes in impact, just shorter wording; and (b) the two books appear to be inconsistent in places.

I intend to deal with the problem pragmatically, in the interests of both referees and players, as best I can. (Unfortunately at the moment I am out of action, awaiting knee surgery.)

 

[crossref]

we come back to the intriguing phenomenon I mentioned above - when confronted with a choice between what's written in the Law Book, and what is said in an email you received, you choose the email. I choose the Law Book.