[Law] 21.4 d Why is this a law and when should and shouldn't be called

[OB..]

Personally, changing a PK to an opponents scrum on this technicality really goes against my sense of fairness. If the ball doesn't move along the ground or out of the hands then the kick hasn't happened so "peeeep" and take over each and every time. That brings it in line with taking from the wrong place.

Totally disagree. Taking a quick tap is a standard play. Why should they be allowed to have a second shot if they don't know how to do it? It would only encourage them to keep trying it on each week.

 

[DocY]

Totally disagree. Taking a quick tap is a standard play. Why should they be allowed to have a second shot if they don't know how to do it? It would only encourage them to keep trying it on each week.

It's a bit inconsistent, don't you think? They take it from the wrong place (arguably far more of a potential advantage) and they get to re-take it.

 

[OB..]

It's a bit inconsistent, don't you think? They take it from the wrong place (arguably far more of a potential advantage) and they get to re-take it.

If anything, that is the one I might change.

However there is a difference. Taking the PK is totally under the control of the player. Marking the spot for the penalty is totally under the control of the referee. The law in effect allows the kicker to guess so as to take it as fast as possible, rather than having to wait to the referee.

 

[DocY]

If anything, that is the one I might change.

However there is a difference. Taking the PK is totally under the control of the player. Marking the spot for the penalty is totally under the control of the referee. The law in effect allows the kicker to guess so as to take it as fast as possible, rather than having to wait to the referee.

Very good point!

 

[ChrisR]

In my world I see the problem as one of ignorance, not "trying it on". Call it back, state the requirement and i would not expect to see it again.

 

[Dickie E]

In my world I see the problem as one of ignorance, not "trying it on". Call it back, state the requirement and i would not expect to see it again.

Agree. They see RL players on TV doing it

 

[Camquin]

If they take it quickly from roughly the right position, we let it go.
If they are not in the right position, we call them back - and let the opposition align.
However, if I make a mark and tell them where it is and they still take it from in front, I will give a scrum to the opposition.

 

[Rawling]

[LAWS]21.2 (c)
If a quickly taken penalty kick or free kick is taken from the wrong place the referee will order the kick to be taken again.
[/LAWS]

Yeah, I mean... how long has it been like that? I thought it used to be a turnover scrum (thought it still was...)

 

[OB..]

Yeah, I mean... how long has it been like that? I thought it used to be a turnover scrum (thought it still was...)

New in 2014.

 

[DocY]

What if it's taken incorrectly and in the wrong place?

 

[Staffs_Ref]

What if it's taken incorrectly and in the wrong place?

Scrum with the non-offending team putting in. (The greater infringement taking precedence)

 

[SimonSmith]

In my world I see the problem as one of ignorance, not "trying it on". Call it back, state the requirement and i would not expect to see it again.

Hae ma doots there. Maybe your guys are just unlucky with me, but I -as others say - make it explicit in my PMB to the 9 what the expectation is. My sympathies for ignorance in this instance are therefore limited.

 

[Pinky]

I disagree with the 'take it again' approach.

This happened to an U23 team that I coach. We were penalized, and the opposing 9 tried a quick tap and the ball didn't leave his hands. Ref spotted it, and called him back. I was shouting at our skipper to ask for the scrum.

Ref instead allowed them a do over, and they scored from their kick at goal.

Sympathetic misapplication of law has consequences.

Simon, I would (with school boys) normally allow one incorrectly taken PK (each) to be retaken, but I would not allow them to change to a kick at goal. If they have gone for a tap, then they have decided not to go for goal, for me.

 

[Dickie E]

I was shouting at our skipper to ask for the scrum.

Should be shouting at him to not give away penalties.

 

[didds]

I noticed this question I raised hadn;t been answered or whatever so here it is again...


>>> Put it another way... if the runner didn't even make a foot tap but just ran, would you STILL be penalising the silly defender? <<<

didds

 

[crossref]

If anything, that is the one I might change.

However there is a difference. Taking the PK is totally under the control of the player. Marking the spot for the penalty is totally under the control of the referee. The law in effect allows the kicker to guess so as to take it as fast as possible, rather than having to wait to the referee.

so perhaps a better Law would be that if the referee hasn't yet made a mark, then you can guess and no penalty if the ref thinks it wasn't close enough, take it again... but once the ref HAS made a mark, then taking the PK from somewhere else would be an improperly taken kick and a scrum conceded.

 

[Camquin]

crossref, I think that the IRB think that that is what the law says - and it is how most referees would interpret the law. Though I have seen too many TV games where the kicker starts on the mark then takes two big steps forward before actually punting the ball - which should be called back.

Of course it is not what the law actually says:

Law 21

21.2 Where penalty and free kicks are taken
(a)
The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or anywhere behind it on a line through the mark. If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the goal line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of infringement.
(b)
When a penalty or free kick is awarded in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, in line with the place of infringement.

Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum 5 metres from the goal line in line with the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.


(c)
If a quickly taken penalty kick or free kick is taken from the wrong place the referee will order the kick to be taken again.

Everywhere else in the laws - e.g. in law 21.4, if there are multiple paragraphs leading to one sanction, the sanction applies to the section.

So if we apply the letter of the law, any kick taken from the wrong place after we have made the mark, we advance the scrum to 5m from the opposition goal line. Or is that retreat to within 5m of the offending teams goal line.

On the subject of what were the law makers thinking:

22.4
(g) Kick taken in the in-goal. If a player retires into in-goal to take a penalty or free kick awarded in the field of play and a defending player by foul play prevents an opponent from scoring a try a penalty try is awarded.

What, when and a side order of why?

The opposition need to retire untill they are 10m from the mark - so 15m from the goal line. Potentially 40m from the kick.

Once the kick is taken there is open play, so law 22 and law 10 cover penalty tries adequately, not sure why it needs to be mentioned here.

Also a free kick can be awarded in-goal. But that is not mentioned here.

 

[Dickie E]

so perhaps a better Law would be that if the referee hasn't yet made a mark, then you can guess and no penalty if the ref thinks it wasn't close enough, take it again... but once the ref HAS made a mark, then taking the PK from somewhere else would be an improperly taken kick and a scrum conceded.

No. If a team sets to form a scrum in the wrong place, the ref just moves them. If a lineout forms in the wrong place, the ref moves it. If a player sets to take a conversion from the wrong place, the ref moves him.