[Law] 21.4 d Why is this a law and when should and shouldn't be called

[didds]

I think it's always material - the whole point of a tap penalty is to catch the opposition on the hoof, and to move very quickly to get the advantage of this, tapping the ball against your boot, rather than kicking it, gives you an advantage in both - it's not clear that you have taken it, and you are able to move much faster, with no risk of fumbling.

So I'd suggest that you should never let it go, but rather you should always pull them back.

Do you let them take it again, or do you give a scrum?

In England quick taps come into the game at u13 level (other regions may differ) so if it's the first half of the season I suppose it's possible that some of the kids didn't understand about how to take one properly, so if you like you can let them take it again (but then I think you'd have to let the other team have a second chance the first time they do it).

If you are very generous you might feel that even a year or two later at U14 level, they still don't know how to do it .....

I still see this at U16 level occassionally.

I put that down to ignorance at multiple levels - the players, the historical coaches and the refs (often coaches of course).

didds

 

[Dickie E]

errr...

None.

the ball wasn't ever live.

they need to run from the mark as soon as penalty is awarded, not once the ball is live

 

[ChrisR]

Why would generally a coach coach something that he knows is a gotcha non-starter? Yes there are a few idiots out there but its hardly a smart piece of coaching etc.


This might surprise you, but sometimes players don't always do what their coach coaches them... ;-)

didds

Didn't mean to imply that it is coached the wrong way. It is a matter of omission, they allow the player to tap the foot to a held ball without correction.

The bad habit gets reinforced during touch games If every coach made every player restart with the ball on the ground the problem would go away.

 

[didds]

they need to run from the mark as soon as penalty is awarded, not once the ball is live

yes. But when the runner was interfered with, the runner was not a real runner.

how d'ya know the interfering player wasn't going to continue retreating to the goal line before being drawn (stupidly!) into tackling a runner that wasn't permitted to run?

otherwise we potentially have a deliberate non tap to draw a PK advance/FK upgrade/card in the knowledge that the attackers will probably keep the ball (for the non tap) if spotted, a PK (etc) if not. There's a risk an "onside" player will make the tackle but that may be considered a gamble worth taking versus the above.

its basically a non-legal act (lack of tap) and a non legal response to something that wasn't therefore happening. Very Kafquesque. Or quasi Rumsfeldian.

Put it another way... if the runner didn't even make a foot tap but just ran, would you STILL be penalising the silly defender?

didds

 

[OB..]

i guess it depends. in this video clip, the match referee whistles immediately, as he hadn't seen the quick tap. Unfortunately the offside player tackling the quick witted scrum-half sparks the red mist which covers all.

Just about every PMB I hear includes a reminder (to the scrum half in particular) to take a quick tap near the mark and where the referee can see it. In this clip he takes it behind the referee's back. Go figure.

 

[Dickie E]

yes. But when the runner was interfered with, the runner was not a real runner.

how d'ya know the interfering player wasn't going to continue retreating to the goal line before being drawn (stupidly!) into tackling a runner that wasn't permitted to run?

otherwise we potentially have a deliberate non tap to draw a PK advance/FK upgrade/card in the knowledge that the attackers will probably keep the ball (for the non tap) if spotted, a PK (etc) if not. There's a risk an "onside" player will make the tackle but that may be considered a gamble worth taking versus the above.

its basically a non-legal act (lack of tap) and a non legal response to something that wasn't therefore happening. Very Kafquesque. Or quasi Rumsfeldian.

Put it another way... if the runner didn't even make a foot tap but just ran, would you STILL be penalising the silly defender?

didds

but being only 3 metres from the mark the red player has distracted the white player to the point that the white player has taken the kick incorrectly.

 

[bennyboy]

http://barrie.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=884001 Video footage from local media. Not the best but I am 100% sure the ball never left his hands.
As far as I recall according to my AR red was on the goal line.

 

[L'irlandais]

Excellent. Not often we get footage (other than from professional/TV rugby.)
Good call from ref.

It's a simple enough "skill" to learn, dropping the ball on to one's heel so it bounces back into the hands.

 

[crossref]

Umm, not the heel

 

[L'irlandais]

[laws]21.3 How the penalty and free kicks are taken
(a). Any player may take a penalty or free kick awarded for an infringement with any type of kick: punt, drop kick or place kick. The ball may be kicked with any part of the lower leg from knee to the foot, excluding the knee and the heel.[/laws]Well spotted.

 

[Pegleg]

I think it's always material - the whole point of a tap penalty is to catch the opposition on the hoof, and to move very quickly to get the advantage of this, tapping the ball against your boot, rather than kicking it, gives you an advantage in both - it's not clear that you have taken it, and you are able to move much faster, with no risk of fumbling.

So I'd suggest that you should never let it go, but rather you should always pull them back.

Do you let them take it again, or do you give a scrum?

In England quick taps come into the game at u13 level (other regions may differ) so if it's the first half of the season I suppose it's possible that some of the kids didn't understand about how to take one properly, so if you like you can let them take it again (but then I think you'd have to let the other team have a second chance the first time they do it).

If you are very generous you might feel that even a year or two later at U14 level, they still don't know how to do it .....

I can see times when it would not be material. Each referee will decide that for him / herself. If you are happy it is material in every case that is your call. I don't like saying "never" or "always". I often find they come back to bite you on the backside. If I was going to sanction it it would be a Scrum at the levels that I referee. Youngsters in the Pathway? Then a re-take may be the appropriate way initially and yes you treat both sides equally. Apply common sense. By the time they get to the national league system, nope they don't get a second go.

 

[Huck2Spit]

I had to call this one a bunch this spring, and not just Quick taps but where they've set up to run a play from a PK and just put foot to ball. Scrum for me every time and explanation to both sides why as they set up to scrummage.... hasn't happened a second time in a given game taking that approach.
Can't punt a kickoff, and won't get points for a non drop kick through the posts, or can't place Kick for touch. Just some of the particulars of the sport.
However, assuming it's material, in best managing safety when is it a offence? Once the ball is run past the mark or as soon as it's not properly kicked? If it's not kick a visible distance then passed-- whistle? Or not yet? Since play hasn't restarted theoretical that player ( pass receiver) could then still take a proper kick at the mark and be OK, right.

 

[Dickie E]

If it's not kick a visible distance then passed-- whistle? Or not yet? Since play hasn't restarted theoretical that player ( pass receiver) could then still take a proper kick at the mark and be OK, right.

It's either a kick that hasn't been taken correctly or a kick that hasn't happened at all. I can't see how it can be both.

To boil an egg correctly you put it in cold water. To boil an egg incorrectly you put it in hot water. If you leave the egg in the fridge and the water in the tap, you have neither boiled an egg correctly nor incorrectly.

 

[Pegleg]

Tking your analogy it is a kick taken incorrectly the player kicks the ball (foot and ball come into contact) but with no release of the ball from hand. So it has been kicked.

Your egg boiler who has left the egg in the fridge has not attempted t otake the kick. Where as the other two bot hhave. A big, significant difference.

Anyway I think the laws' intention is clear. If you do anything to suggest the restart has occured it is either correctly or incorrectly. Playing with semantics does not help.

 

[didds]

but being only 3 metres from the mark the red player has distracted the white player to the point that the white player has taken the kick incorrectly.

Don't buy that at all. tap and goes happen all the time in traffic.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

didds

 

[Christy]

Hi dickie.
Ref boiled egg
I havent mastered boiling a soft boiled egg
I can make the soldiers no problem .

I always boil water 1st
Then put egg in.

Are you suggesting put egg in cold water.
And if so , how long do u boil for

Or , are you talking about hard boiled eggs
Thanks

 

[L'irlandais]

Spot on Christy, hard boiled eggs = penalty kicks
Soft boiled eggs FK are an entirely different kettle of fish.
And the OP was referring to how one lines up the soldiers.
Pay attention please Dickie! :biggrin:

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Dickie E]

I havent mastered boiling a soft boiled egg
I always boil water 1st
Then put egg in.

Say. No. More

 

[ChrisR]

It's either a kick that hasn't been taken correctly or a kick that hasn't happened at all. I can't see how it can be both.

To boil an egg correctly you put it in cold water. To boil an egg incorrectly you put it in hot water. If you leave the egg in the fridge and the water in the tap, you have neither boiled an egg correctly nor incorrectly.

The correct analogy to attempting, but not taking, the kick is to put water & egg in the pot but not turning on the burner.

Personally, changing a PK to an opponents scrum on this technicality really goes against my sense of fairness. If the ball doesn't move along the ground or out of the hands then the kick hasn't happened so "peeeep" and take over each and every time. That brings it in line with taking from the wrong place.

 

[Phil E]

Omelette!