A tackle gone sadly wrong

irishref


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So the white ball carrier is held by 2 purple tacklers - momentum halted. A third purple player then sees fit to lift his legs up over the horizontal and drive him into the ground?

It looks disgusting, pointless and exceedingly dangerous.
 

Browner

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So the white ball carrier is held by 2 purple tacklers - momentum halted. A third purple player then sees fit to lift his legs up over the horizontal and drive him into the ground?

It looks disgusting, pointless and exceedingly dangerous.

New law, ???
Tackling to the floor needs to be done immediately and as part of the initial tacklers action. Lifting by subsequent tacklers is dangerous play.

???
 

Dixpat

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Honestly about 4 weeks. I think he will get 6-8.

In the NRL the judiciary committee are mandated to consider the extent of the injury suffered when there is a hearing for foul play

A Newcastle forward was banned for 7 weeks last season because he shoulder charged [illegal] an opponent in a tackle and the BC's jaw was broken

If the tackler is found guilty in this case then he will be suspend for, in my opinion, 10-12 weeks

I have sympathy for the tackler in how the tackle ended up and would apply around 50% of that
 

Ian_Cook


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Meh. One leg, both legs. No difference in IMO.

For me, the bit that makes this a stone red (if it had taken place in RU) is what Purple 16 does from 0:28 to 0:33, where, after already being at the tackle, he intentionally bends down, intentionally lifts the player up by a leg such that his head is below his hips and intentionally drives him head first into the ground. Whether the BC "ducks his head" or not, he was still always going to hit the ground head first.

For mine, this is a very dangerous tackle and a RC....all day log, every day!
 

menace


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So the white ball carrier is held by 2 purple tacklers - momentum halted. A third purple player then sees fit to lift his legs up over the horizontal and drive him into the ground?

It looks disgusting, pointless and exceedingly dangerous.

But you will see this type of gang and lifting tackle at least half a dozen times in an NRL match. (Not saying it's right, just suggesting that it's been permitted in this game). The defence will have plenty of vision to show at the hearing where a tackle like this wasn't even given a penalty.
 

leaguerefaus


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Let's assume that an offensive player runs from about 10M on his run up.

Decreasing the 10M it would decrease the ability to hit at speed, where now, it is normally two players clashing full speed from 10M running starts. This decrease would mean one offensive player hitting at full speed where the defence would be left at only 5M of speed. 10M>5M possibly leading to a safer tackle as the offense has speed to go down?? (that's where I can't figure it out)

Ex player suggested reducing the 10m because it would stop teams trying to slow the play the ball down so much, because they wouldn't have to get back so far. No way it will happen. It was a suggestion by one person which was picked up by all the media.
 

menace


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As for construction of the guideline: if the dress code for a function says that "T-shirts shall not be worn", does that mean that I am OK if I only wear one T-shirt?

Or, closer to the specific subject: the guideline says that "Dropping or throwing tackled players once they are in a dangerous position..."; does that mean that provided I only drop or throw one player I'm outside the guideline?

FWIW, the first video illustrating Law 10.4(j) is the Warburton/LeClerc tackle; the second is a tackle similar to the tackle on McKinnon (from which I wish him the best for recovery), with only one leg lifted and the other following. If White 5 hadn't got his arm out, it looked an even more dangerous tackle than the Warburton/LeClerc one.

Yes yes you make your point very well counsell...but you missed my point that I was suggesting that the wording, as usual, could easily be interpreted 2 ways. You've chosen to apply a common sense approach to it (that's strange for a lawyer? :biggrin:), many would not and apply a literal reading.

Unfortanately a great many people will interpret that guideline wording to mean both legs.

I could almost bet my house on it, that if you were a defence lawyer for a party that needed to get off a charge involving a one leg lift that you would be arguing that the wording is potentially ambiguous. You would be arguing that technicality to create that element of doubt.

Ps that guideline was made worse in my area as our education session showed videos of one leg lifts that went past horizontal but the hips didn't, and were advised that PK only. (Unless there were other dangerous actions to make it a higher sanction)
 
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4eyesbetter


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On the subject of the 10m law: you can pretty much trace all the wrestling and attempts to control the ballcarrier beyond just bringing him to ground any which way to the effect of the early-90s change from 5m to 10m. See, it's pretty easy to be holding position up near where a tackle's being effected, and then get back 5m from it in time to be onside - but doubling the distance makes that impossible. You have to be moving backwards at a good rate of knots as the ballcarrier is being tackled in order to make the 10, or you're not getting there.

This changes a lot of things; most importantly for the issue at hand, it makes offloads absolutely deadly. With the 5m law, the defenders can hang around near the tackle to mitigate the effect of the offload. With the 10m law, they can't do that because they've got to be heading back to the referee, and suddenly when the offload comes in they're moving the wrong way and aren't organised.

This in turn leads to a change in tackling technique: now, instead of just putting the bloke on the ground, it becomes more important to tackle high and lock the ball up. All right, you might lose a few metres while the ballcarrier pushes himself forward with his newly-free legs until help arrives, but if he gets that offload away you're lucky if you only lose ten more metres - any offload is now a genuine chance of at least a line break, and probably a try-scoring chance. Additionally, you give your mates a couple extra seconds to make the ten, if they can go as soon as you've locked the ball up and there's help at hand.

And now it's taking longer and longer to effect tackles, and referees are constantly reminded to be vigilant for players slowing the play-the-ball after effecting a tackle, and people start thinking "what can we do to prolong the tackle process?" And that's where the modern emphasis comes in on controlling the ball, and then wrestling the ballcarrier in such a way that he falls on his back with his head pointing to his own posts; from that position it'll take him another second to be up and playing the ball than if he's on his front pointing to your posts, and when you're defending every extra second you can get is a precious thing.

So that's what they mean; it's entirely possible that if the 10m law had never come in, we wouldn't be seeing this exact flavour of dangerous throw, because the techniques that lead to it came about as a direct response to the challenges of the 10m law. Of course, now they've hit on the idea, you can't just go back to 5m and hope the teams will magically knock it off. Genies and bottles.

(The other thing that might be a factor here is an interpretation that was brought in on safety grounds; about ten years ago, instead of taking the ballcarrier to ground, what the defenders would have done is lifted his leg and then started pushing him backwards for field position until an attacking teammate could lend weight to the tackle. That was thought to be unsafe, so the interpretation came in that "held" should be called immediately the leg was lifted, and so defenders started trying to use the leg lift to bring the ballcarrier to ground in the manner shown here.)

Meh. One leg, both legs. No difference in IMO.

For me, the bit that makes this a stone red (if it had taken place in RU) is what Purple 16 does from 0:28 to 0:33, where, after already being at the tackle, he intentionally bends down, intentionally lifts the player up by a leg such that his head is below his hips and intentionally drives him head first into the ground. Whether the BC "ducks his head" or not, he was still always going to hit the ground head first.

For mine, this is a very dangerous tackle and a RC....all day log, every day!

It's always weird when someone you respect comes out with one of these "what on earth game are you watching?" interpretations of something that seems clear and obvious to you, isn't it? I wish more people would remember moments like this when they moan at video referees for coming up with a decision they don't understand.
 

RobLev

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Yes yes you make your point very well counsell...but you missed my point that I was suggesting that the wording, as usual, could easily be interpreted 2 ways. You've chosen to apply a common sense approach to it (that's strange for a lawyer? :biggrin:), many would not and apply a literal reading.

Unfortanately a great many people will interpret that guideline wording to mean both legs.

I could almost bet my house on it, that if you were a defence lawyer for a party that needed to get off a charge involving a one leg lift that you would be arguing that the wording is potentially ambiguous. You would be arguing that technicality to create that element of doubt.

Not a chance. Advocates don't want to make themselves look stupid by advancing an unmeritorious argument - it reduces the credibility of their other arguments.

As soon as I started the line of argument, the judge/JO would stop it with the question "Are you really asking me to accept that your client's action was less dangerous merely because he used only one leg rather than two to turn his opponent upside-down? Was the injury not to the other end of the victim?"

Ps that guideline was made worse in my area as our education session showed videos of one leg lifts that went past horizontal but the hips didn't, and were advised that PK only. (Unless there were other dangerous actions to make it a higher sanction)

Dangerous advice; both for you as ref and for the players in your care.
 

leaguerefaus


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Tragically, Alex McKinnon has today been informed by doctors that he is a quadriplegic. It must be the most awful day for himself, his loved ones, as well as for the player who performed the tackle.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Tragically, Alex McKinnon has today been informed by doctors that he is a quadriplegic. It must be the most awful day for himself, his loved ones, as well as for the player who performed the tackle.

That's terrible news. More terrible as I foolishly took some hope from "he'd be back playing in 2 years". I wish him and his loved ones all the best.
 

Browner

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Tragically, Alex McKinnon has today been informed by doctors that he is a quadriplegic. It must be the most awful day for himself, his loved ones, as well as for the player who performed the tackle.

I am very saddened by this, and echo these sentiments.

Sport without risk is a utopian state that I wouldn't wish to see.

In this case, its my personal belief that the combined weight of 'three' players forcing him towards the ground has more significance than the leg lift.

I will be very surprised (and disappointed ) if RL doesn't change this aspect of the way a tackle can be 'completed' within their Code.

My personal adjudication of 'lifting tackles' has had a narrower acceptability threshold installed ongoing, that much I do know.

PS.....AS an aside.. IMO in juniors RU, YC should be removed for Lifting tackles, either they are legal or they are RC, as part of a erradication strategy.
 
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Jarrod Burton


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Surely the NRL will react to this event and outlaw the lifting tackle and the gang lift. If not I fear they will experience a pretty severe backlash in those parents who aren't die hard fans removing their kids from the sport.

I'm so sad for McKinnon and his family following this announcement
 

leaguerefaus


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Surely the NRL will react to this event and outlaw the lifting tackle and the gang lift. If not I fear they will experience a pretty severe backlash in those parents who aren't die hard fans removing their kids from the sport.

I'm so sad for McKinnon and his family following this announcement
Lifting tackles aren't allowed until U16s in Aus.
 

Dixie


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Lifting tackles aren't allowed until U16s in Aus.
That's good - so your quadriplegics will not have to ahve too many fittings for replacement wheelchairs as they get older. Forethought is always welcome in a governing body.
 

Jarrod Burton


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Lifting tackles aren't allowed until U16s in Aus.

While that is an excellent start, why not just ban them in the whole sport? What benefit is gained by lifting past the horizontal? An extra second or two until the play of the ball? Compare that to the final result, albeit rare, of this example of a lifting gang tackle - is someone spending 50 years in a wheelchair an acceptable price to pay?

As an aside, it seems on facebook that many league fans feel that because "I'm sure there was no malice in the tackle" (an example of the comments) that no action should be taken against the tackler(s) as they wouldn't have deliberately hurt McKinnon. Seems horrifically short sighted in my opinion, since the tacklers deliberately lifted the leg and dumped him onto the ground. Scrubbing these sorts of tackles would not reduce the spectacle of the game, but would definately improve player safety and reduce the wider public's opinion that RL is a game for thugs played by thugs.
 

Browner

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That's good - so your quadriplegics will not have to ahve too many fittings for replacement wheelchairs as they get older. Forethought is always welcome in a governing body.

I kinda see the point being alluded to, what is it about age maturity that makes the (dangerous ) Lift tackle not so dangerous any more after 16.

As I've said, its the 'Gang tackle' that needs addressing . Quite how such a mismatch doesn't produce more injuries escapes me.
 

Daftmedic


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All support should be given to the family of this poor lad. This is not the time to make knee jerk policy adjustments. All evidence should be gathered and an informed descision needs to implemented in due time.
Again my thoughts are with the family of this young man
 

Stephen Elliott

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One of the worst aspects of both codes is the ambiguity about what is an unsafe tackle. It's harder for grass root refs to police this as you get a lot of crossover between codes and thus this happens too often....
".... Sir, he's a RL player and they are allowed, look the guys got up OK"... at which point (if not being assessed and nice job they do to) I'll reply "I couldn't give a flying .... it's dangerous."

It never fails to amaze me how people still think their can get away with a lifting tackle, straight arm or shoulder barge... I'll accept a high tackle can be accidental, especially if it hits the chest and rides up (but naive to know when I'm being played)... but those 3 are about hurting your opponent. Don't kid yourself it's about giving you team time to get back.

Tackling is about putting your opponent down so hard that he doesn't want to run at you again... or so every coach and captain told me before the start of every match.
 
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