A tackle gone sadly wrong

[leaguerefaus]

JUDICIARY UPDATE:

Rugby league legend and former long-serving tribunal member Ron Coote admits he wouldn't know how to decide the fate of Jordan McLean at what is certain to be an intense and emotional NRL judiciary hearing on Wednesday night.

The judiciary hearing will form two stages.


In the first stage, the three panel members will have to decide if McLean is guilty or not guilty of a dangerous throw after judiciary counsel, or prosecution, and defence counsel have submitted their arguments.


If McLean is found not guilty, the case is over.


If he is found guilty, the two parties will put forward their submissions as to what should be considered an appropriate penalty.


Melbourne can call upon any witnesses they please, including Kenny and Jesse Bromwich, who were also involved in the tackle on McKinnon but not charged of any wrongdoing, and bio-mechanics experts.


As per judiciary rules, those witnesses can then be questioned by the judiciary counsel.

 

[Browner]

This is not the time to make knee jerk policy adjustments. All evidence should be gathered and an informed descision needs to implemented in due time.

"Informed" would require robust /specific data to have been collected already.

Are you seriously imagining that the RL have data to establish the "# of injuries caused by 'gang tackling, where a players legs are lifted off the floor and then 3 other players force him into the ground"?

If so, then you should change your name to 'naivemedic'.

As an aside, Where are the injury reports in the RFU?, publicly available?, if course not.... Do they match with actual injury at clubs ?, of course not .....in the last two weeks x2 of my U15s have gone to hospital to have a concussion scan, do either appear on any reporting data to the RFU - no. Do A&E report via RFU to IRB, is this data available?

The brutal pro game is the biggest threat to the safety of the amateur player IMHO. :-(

 

[Browner]

JUDICIARY UPDATE:

Rugby league legend and former long-serving tribunal member Ron Coote admits he wouldn't know how to decide the fate of Jordan McLean at what is certain to be an intense and emotional NRL judiciary hearing on Wednesday night.

The judiciary hearing will form two stages.


In the first stage, the three panel members will have to decide if McLean is guilty or not guilty of a dangerous throw after judiciary counsel, or prosecution, and defence counsel have submitted their arguments.


If McLean is found not guilty, the case is over.


If he is found guilty, the two parties will put forward their submissions as to what should be considered an appropriate penalty.


Melbourne can call upon any witnesses they please, including Kenny and Jesse Bromwich, who were also involved in the tackle on McKinnon but not charged of any wrongdoing, and bio-mechanics experts.


As per judiciary rules, those witnesses can then be questioned by the judiciary counsel.

If it were me, I'd have sought out the legal team that looked after Mealamu/Umaga or Horwill or OJ Simpson !

 

[Ian_Cook]

If it were me, I'd have sought out the legal team that looked after Mealamu/Umaga or Horwill or OJ Simpson !

Mealamu/Umaga there was no legal team. They weren't cited.

Remember that was 2005; pre memo

 

[Browner]

Mealamu/Umaga there was no legal team. They weren't cited.

There would have been a legal team, involved as soon as the match finished, orchestrating all interviews etc .... I'll await the book that confirms it !

 

[menace]

This is going to be very interesting and be a pressure situation for the judiciary either way it goes.

Pointing out the elephant in the room.
I suspect the bigger the ban to McLean, the bigger the compensation law suite will come from it (ie not just an 'accident'). I'm torn on this case. McKinnon needs to be looked after financially for the rest of his life so on the one hand a big sanction will ensure proper liability and compo, yet on the other I'd hate to see McLean used as a scapegoat for something that you see many times each NRL game.

So the result either way is going to affect grassroots rugby league and potentially all collision sports in this country one way or another.

 

[Ian_Cook]

This is going to be very interesting and be a pressure situation for the judiciary either way it goes.

Pointing out the elephant in the room.
I suspect the bigger the ban to McLean, the bigger the compensation law suite will come from it (ie not just an 'accident'). I'm torn on this case. McKinnon needs to be looked after financially for the rest of his life so on the one hand a big sanction will ensure proper liability and compo, yet on the other I'd hate to see McLean used as a scapegoat for something that you see many times each NRL game.

So the result either way is going to affect grassroots rugby league and potentially all collision sports in this country one way or another.

The best possible outcome would be for McLean to be exonerated, but for the NRL and/or the game in general to take responsibility for allowing potentially dangerous laws to legalise dangerous actions.

All someone would need to do in RL is to look how RU recognised that turning the ball carrier upside down is dangerous, and what they are doing to take this dangerous practice out of the game.

How different Vincent Clerc's life might be now had he rotated just a few degrees further.....

 

[leaguerefaus]

The best possible outcome would be for McLean to be exonerated...

McLean shouldn't be exonerated - the tackle was dangerous. I just don't think it's worth more than a week.

 

[Daftmedic]

"Informed" would require robust /specific data to have been collected already.

Are you seriously imagining that the RL have data to establish the "# of injuries caused by 'gang tackling, where a players legs are lifted off the floor and then 3 other players force him into the ground"?

If so, then you should change your name to 'naivemedic'.

As an aside, Where are the injury reports in the RFU?, publicly available?, if course not.... Do they match with actual injury at clubs ?, of course not .....in the last two weeks x2 of my U15s have gone to hospital to have a concussion scan, do either appear on any reporting data to the RFU - no. Do A&E report via RFU to IRB, is this data available?

The brutal pro game is the biggest threat to the safety of the amateur player IMHO. :-(

There is a huge wealth of information that can be gathered from the gps trackers. That includes force, acceleration and deceleration. It's called mechanism of injuries.
Thats why in cars now you have air bags seat belts. Taking information from RTC's has drastically improved car safety. Put that into the tackle situation with data you get an informed decision and "FYI" don't be so patronising on something quite obviously you know little about.

Dump/spear takels are dangerous because they have collated data proving they are. Should I carry on making my point?

 

[leaguerefaus]

7 weeks, hmm...

http://nrl.com/mclean-gets-7-weeks-for-dangerous-throw/tabid/10874/newsid/77317/default.aspx

 

[RobLev]

7 weeks, hmm...

http://nrl.com/mclean-gets-7-weeks-for-dangerous-throw/tabid/10874/newsid/77317/default.aspx

Is the decision online anywhere? Because I have to say that the way the case was defended:

Ghabar expressed deep sympathy for McKinnon and his family but, insisted with respect that the Knights youngster "unfortunately and unwittingly" contributed to his injury by "tucking his head into his chest" before hitting the ground.

He said if McKinnon did not change his posture mid-tackle, "there is no way he would have landed on his head".

...which follows the Storms captain's similar comments to the ref after the incident, would for me contribute to the severity (severity? - what am I talking about?) of the penalty. Not just because of the victim-blaming (albeit he also blamed his team-mates' presence) but because it might give him some incentive to improve his knowledge of anatomy.

This, though, is the terrifying comment, if the belief is correct:

We came here tonight with Jordan feeling that the tackle that led to the terrible accident was really no different to hundreds of tackles you see like that in the NRL every season.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...ans-penalty-20140402-zqpv7.html#ixzz2xj8Lb9EB

 

[menace]

We came here tonight with Jordan feeling that the tackle that led to the terrible accident was really no different to hundreds of tackles you see like that in the NRL every season.

I think the sentiment is correct...I don't know the order of significance of them, but they are not uncommon.

Funny - I went over the ARL law book I found online (admittedly 2012 cause I couldn't find any other in my quick search) and I could not find anything about sanctions regarding lifting tackles.

(Leagueref - what is the law wording regarding lifting tackles in RL?)

 

[RobLev]

We came here tonight with Jordan feeling that the tackle that led to the terrible accident was really no different to hundreds of tackles you see like that in the NRL every season.

I think the sentiment is correct...I don't know the order of significance of them, but they are not uncommon.

...

That's why I said it was terrifying!

 

[Jarrod Burton]

I heard a report on this on ABC news radio on the way home tonight and to be honest, am a bit disgusted with the Storm coaching staff/management even considering an appeal against the severity of the sanction. Surely the best way to deal with this from a PR point of view is to accept the punishment and get on with it. Appealing 7 weeks after a young man may spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair can't be doing the club any favours in the eyes of most people.

 

[menace]

Then again, if they down grade the sentence, perhaps in their minds and public perception, it will ease the 'blame'/'responsibility' factor on McLean. McLean must be is carrying a huge burden on his shoulders and in his head...and they will be looking at ways to reduce that.

 

[leaguerefaus]

I think the sentiment is correct...I don't know the order of significance of them, but they are not uncommon.

Funny - I went over the ARL law book I found online (admittedly 2012 cause I couldn't find any other in my quick search) and I could not find anything about sanctions regarding lifting tackles.

(Leagueref - what is the law wording regarding lifting tackles in RL?)

[LAWS]Section 11: Notes: Foul throws: A tackler must not make use of any special "holds" or "throws" which are likely to cause injury...[/LAWS]
[LAWS]Section 15: 1. A player is guilty of misconduct if he:
(d) uses any dangerous throw when effecting a tackle[/LAWS]
[LAWS]Section 15: Notes: Dangerous Throw: If, in any tackle of, or contact with, an opponent that player is so lifted that he is placed in a position where it is likely that the first part of his body to make contact with the ground will be his head or neck ("the dangerous position"), then that tackle or contact will be deemed to be a dangerous throw unless, with the exercise of reasonable care, the dangerous position could not have been avoided.[/LAWS]

 

[Browner]

There is a huge wealth of information that can be gathered from the gps trackers. That includes force, acceleration and deceleration. It's called mechanism of injuries.
Thats why in cars now you have air bags seat belts. Taking information from RTC's has drastically improved car safety. Put that into the tackle situation with data you get an informed decision and "FYI" don't be so patronising on something quite obviously you know little about.

Dump/spear takels are dangerous because they have collated data proving they are. Should I carry on making my point?

RTC's are a distraction on this subject.

The x3 players that suffered concussion in the side I coach all visited hospital and got scanned this season. Prove that these statistics reach the IRB lawmakers , because the RFU don't know about them.

The 'Gang combined ' weight added to BC weight, all landing on a bent neck is the issue I'm highlighting (and as bad as warburtons was it is nowhere near as bad in 'total mass' respect)

however daft medic, if you can show me evidence that RL has separate data for these GANG injuries then I will concede .......until then , no you haven't won this point by referring to vehicle accidents

"SIGNIFICANT DOWNWARD FORCE"

 

[Browner]

RTC's are a distraction on this subject.

The x3 players that suffered concussion in the side I coach all visited hospital and got scanned this season. Prove that these statistics reach the IRB lawmakers , because the RFU don't know about them.

The 'Gang combined ' weight added to BC weight, all landing on a bent neck is the issue I'm highlighting (and as bad as warburtons was it is nowhere near as bad in 'total mass' respect)

however daft medic, if you can show me evidence that RL has separate data for these injuries then I will concede .......until then , no you haven't won this point by referring to vehicle accidents

PS.... The GPS does not consider x3 players combined weight, I thought medics were supposed to be semi smart?!

..... :O

 

[Daftmedic]

There you go old chap

http://blog.ticketmaster.co.uk/sport/is-rugby-league-the-toughest-sport-in-the-world-1384

oh and this one by actual boffins from the university of Queensland. He has got letters and everything after his name.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/50227518_Tackling_in_a_professional_rugby_league

Oh and being polite is not a hard thing to do. Well for most people anyway.

did you fill out the survey that's been going around for injuries in rugby. Oh and I do hope if they were admitted you filled out the correct proforma and emailed it to the RFU.
AND on the hospitals not supplying data for audit. We do on request from the paid lot at the RFU.

 

[Browner]

http://blog.ticketmaster.co.uk/sport/is-rugby-league-the-toughest-sport-in-the-world-1384

PR from the "look how tough we are " club

Oh and being polite is not a hard thing to do. Well for most people anyway.
Evidence my impoliteness, mildly sarcastic if provoked, that's all.


did you fill out the survey that's been going around for injuries in rugby. Oh and I do hope if they were admitted you filled out the correct proforma and emailed it to the RFU. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz
AND on the hospitals not supplying data for audit. We do on request from the paid lot at the RFU. Of course, how silly of me, no vested interests there then! .

If you believe that Law safety changes arent driven by Liability claims , then you are more naive than you should be!