Actions at the tackle

[Steve70]

Evening all - I'm new to the forum, having been through ELRA (as it was) earlier in the year, and having been reffing U13/12/11/10 for the last few years (also head coach at our juniors club) .... so sorry if this has already been covered....but i'm registering with the Berks Soc and am reffing U14 this weekend (a friendly, with a friendly atmosphere for my first step up!) and the more I read the rules the more questions appear! (I played at 9 so rules never meant much back then... :biggrin


Just a clarification of which direction the tackler can play the ball from -

15.4 (c) says tackler can play the ball from any direction once he's got up. Tackled has to get up and come in from behind. Got that...but...

15.6 (c) says players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball.....

...but aren't the players referred to in 15.6 (c) actually tacklers and therefore can play the ball from any direction? is the difference the fact that the tackler(s) in 15.6 (c) is/are staying on their feet?


This leads onto two further dumb questions...(usual sort of scenario with U12/13)

1. If tackler and tackled player go to ground but both keep hold of the ball during the tackle, who do you ping? i'm assuming the tackled player as he had it in the first place?

2. If subsequently red player and blue player enter the tackle legally and grab the ball at the same time, and the inevitable tug of war begins, we wait till someone else joins the fray and rips/mauls ....but if they then collapse on the ground - no tackle - then presumably they both have to release and get up before playing the ball again....?


Sorry - these sound dumb questions but in the mess of junior breakdowns, I find it a bit tricky to work out just where they've all come from !

 

[Pegleg]

You are only a tackler IF you go to ground in making the tackle. If you do not you have a tackle without a tackler. Of course there can be tackles with more than one tackler.

The order of your watch list should be:

Tackler - Must release the tackler.
Tackled player - Must release / place or pass the ball and then get up.
Arriving players - Must come from their own side "through the gate" and stay on their feet.

Call "TACKLE" nice and loud and watch. Keep on you toes ready to run. Watch for the Tackle turning into a "ruck". Don't be afraid to blow quickly if you think the ball is not coming out of there.

 

[Pegleg]

Remember that if a maul goes to ground nobody has to release or roll away. If the ball in not emerging, blow quickly and Turnover ball.

Be firm early doors so you gain and keep control. You can cut them more slack as you feel more confident. Don't play advantage after foul play until you are very sure you can handle the "tone" of a game. No one will blame you (well someone will but sod them!).

 

[Dixie]

Steve70, welcome to the forum - and welcome to the wonderful world of reffing juniors. I'd guess if you've made it to head coach without taking the whistle to date, you don't see this as an alternative career path!

Your questions indicate that the tackle sequence remains a bit of a mystery. It's important (vital!) to get clear in your mind exactly what you expect to see, so you can recognise when something looks wrong. This is a great place to start conceptualising those things.

Your first question is really quite advanced rugby - you are unlikely to see this scenario even at Level 8 (roughly Reading, Windsor or Redingensians 2nd XV). I hope you don't mind if I start with your second question, which really gets to the heart of the ref's perception of the tackle process.

Let's assume both tackler and tackled player go to ground during the tackle. The law requires two things to happen immediately: the tackler player to release the tackled player and roll away; and the tackled player to exercise his options - usually to release the ball (which he can do by placing it in any direction) - and roll away. In practice, the tackled player can't exercise his options while wrapped up by the tackler, so we require the tackler to release first. If the tackled player hangs on because he was prevented from placing the ball or passing it, we penalise the tackler, as we expect him to act first by releasing the tackled player.

2. If subsequently red player and blue player enter the tackle legally and grab the ball at the same time, and the inevitable tug of war begins, we wait till someone else joins the fray and rips/mauls ....but if they then collapse on the ground - no tackle - then presumably they both have to release and get up before playing the ball again....?

Have they got the ball off the ground? If not, call Ruck - hands away (two oppo in contact over the ball - very little chance they are not touching each other). If they have, then we are in open play. A new arrival creates a maul. If they then collapse, Law 17.6(b) is your friend:

[LAWS]17.6(b) A maul ends unsuccessfully if the ball becomes unplayable or collapses (not as a result of foul play) and a scrum is ordered.[/LAWS] Attacking team put-in.

As to your first question, as Pegleg says, you can have a tackle without a tackler. To be a tackler, the defender must hit the deck. Someone on his feet who brings the ball carrier to ground is not a tackler, and so has to attempt to play the ball from behind the ball and behind the tackled player.

Complex stuff! Bet you've never bellowed at a ref who was making those calls in the heat of the moment while you had it all clear in your mind! :wink:

 

[Steve70]

So these guys.... "players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled ...... may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball...." are essentially players who have managed to stay on their feet (chucking the ball carrier to the ground and letting go, in effect) have to come in round the back to play the ball....

...unlike a 'tackler' who ends up on the floor who can get up immediately and play from any direction.

That sort of makes sense.


And I agree about the maul - but if there is a tug of war that ends up on the floor, i assume that's an unplayable ball (unless a ruck forms over the top and no hands called) and scrum to the team moving forward/attacking....

 

[Taff]

....unlike a 'tackler' who ends up on the floor who can get up immediately and play from any direction.

The tackler can play the ball from any direction provided the ruck hasn't formed.

Once the ruck has formed (ie 2 opposing players both on their feet over the ball on the ground) he's lost his chance to play the ball.

 

[Steve70]

whoops - just crossed replies... yep - all makes sense. Great replies.


at SH, I just tried to get away with any means of digging balls out of piles of bodies..... generally from the back, usually late, so I never really paid much attention to how they ended up like that in the first place! Spent most of the time staring at the ref in disbelief at some infringement I'd imagined....

I've reffed probably every week over the last two or three years at juniors (U10-13) and am loving it... I'm moving towards reffing more rather than coaching now... still playing the odd 2nds and vets but prefer reffing. Seems wrong.... :biggrin:


Anyway,


I take your point about the complexities of my first question....it does happen at juniors - after a tackle, players arrive at the scene from all directions - you shout and most get onside, but some still go in over the top, and some will try and come round - sometimes you get the original tackler as they've managed to get up and contest the ball - but it's the others who may have assisted the tackle who I'm asking about - but you've answered that - cheers.

 

[Browner]

. at SH, I just tried to get away with any means of digging balls out of piles of bodies..... generally from the back, usually late, so I never really paid much attention to how they ended up like that in the first place! Spent most of the time staring at the ref in disbelief at some infringement I'd imagined....

.
You've described most 9's perfectly !

. I've reffed probably every week over the last two or three years at juniors (U10-13) and am loving it... I'm moving towards reffing more rather than coaching now... still playing the odd 2nds and vets but prefer reffing. Seems wrong....

Reffing rarely hurts as much two days after a match ! Sounds like your hooked, we've all been there ....

Keep it up, Good luck.

 

[Decorily]

The tackler can play the ball from any direction provided the ruck hasn't formed.

Once the ruck has formed (ie 2 opposing players both on their feet over the ball on the ground) he's lost his chance to play the ball.

Once the ruck has formed he hasn't necessarily lost his chance to play the ball......remember, if he had his hands on the ball before the ruck formed he can continue to dig and be legal!!

 

[Phil E]

Once the ruck has formed he hasn't necessarily lost his chance to play the ball......remember, if he had his hands on the ball before the ruck formed he can continue to dig and be legal!!

If he has got to dig, then he hasn't got possession!!

If he had possession and then lost it, he cant go back in for a second bite of the cherry.

 

[Decorily]

If he has got to dig, then he hasn't got possession!!

If he had possession and then lost it, he cant go back in for a second bite of the cherry.

Yes Phil, of course you are correct. My bad choice of word... 'dig' gives the wrong impression.

To clarify, if he had his hands on the ball prior to the ruck forming he does NOT have to let the ball go and can continue to 'pull' the ball in the ruck without being penalised for hands in.

 

[Browner]

If he has got to dig, then he hasn't got possession!!

If he had possession and then lost it, he cant go back in for a second bite of the cherry.

As written, "Possession" isn't actually a requirement Phil.

( I'm aware that possession was mentioned in clarification 4\2009 , but when 16.4.(b) was then reworded to incorporate 4\2009, it didn't carry forward possession into law wording)

16.4(b)
Handling the ball 'in a Ruck' is a single exception to law with only ONE qualification ,

PROVIDED you had your hands on the ball prior to ruck formation ( this is a subtle but different test standard than actually having possession) then 16.4(b) allows a player to use hands after ruck formation.

Nowhere does Law limit the number of grab/attempts once the qualification permission is met, even after the aforementioned ruck is created.

Unless I've missed it?

 

[Phil E]

So you are saying that a player may lay his hands on the ball prior to a ruck forming, such that he has no intention of attempting to pick up the ball or contest for it.
The ruck then forms.
If he then gets driven back so that his hands lose contact with the ball, you are quite happy for that player to then (or maybe a minute later) go back into the ruck and pick the ball up or flick it back?

and for clarity, I am not asking what the law says, I am asking what you allow.

 

[Womble]

All referee's need to improve this area of the game ! In my last 3 matches "Sir" has not refereed the "assist tackler" & as a consequence the tackle area has become a mess ! All referees need clear pictures in their head of what is needed & set high standards. As for the ball on the floor, once the "jackler" has lost contact I would not let him have another go !

 

[Blackberry]

Guys, we need a glossary. Can you explain what a jackler and a tackle assist is, and what rights / responsibilities they have? I've been hearing subtly different interpretations lately.

 

[Womble]

Tackled player : Ball carrier brought to ground & held.
Tackler : Player who brings "tackled player" to ground and goes to ground themselves
Tackle assist : Player who stays on his feet & brings Tackled player to ground ( tackle without a "tackler" )
Jackler : first player to arrive at tackle, stay on his feet ( like that happens) and plays the ball pre ruck

 

[crossref]

Tackled player : Ball carrier brought to ground & held.
Tackler : Player who brings "tackled player" to ground and goes to ground themselves
Tackle assist : Player who stays on his feet & brings Tackled player to ground ( tackle without a "tackler" )
Jackler : first player to arrive at tackle, stay on his feet ( like that happens) and plays the ball pre ruck

not quite - actually a tackled player is a ball carrier who is held and brought to ground [and then must be released]

Here's the Law
[LAWS]A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.

A ball carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place.

Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.

Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.[/LAWS]

 

[Dixie]

Tackled player : Ball carrier brought to ground & held.
Tackler : Player who brings "tackled player" to ground and goes to ground themselves
Tackle assist : Player who stays on his feet & brings Tackled player to ground ( tackle without a "tackler" ) or who, while not himself going to ground, assists the tackler to bring the ball carrier to ground
Jackler : first player to arrive at tackle, stay on his feet ( like that happens) and plays the ball pre ruck

So much for the definitions - slightly edited above for completeness. As to what rights and responsibilities they have, I guess only the tackle assist and jackler need a response as tackled player and tackler are very clearly laid down in law:

Tackle Assist:

1) remain on feet
2) clear release of the tackled player
3) (debatable) no need to exit the tackle zone and re-enter, but must reposition as necessary so that (s)he is behind the ball and behind the tackled player and/or tackler
4) Only from that position can (s)he play the ball

Jackler (if different from tackler or tackle assist):

a) must enter the tackle zone through the gate
b) must remain on feet
c) if latches onto the ball prior to a ruck forming, may keep hands on the ball while ruck is on progress
d) if loses grip on ball, becomes just another rucker with no special privileges
e) when so required by Sir, must release the ball (likely only if he's unaware that a ruck formed before he got to the ball, or has lost contact for a moment and then regrasped the ball)
f) must leave the field when shown yellow or red card (usually happens twice every three games).

Jackler (if immediately previously acted as either tackler or tackle assist):

a) may remain in tackle zone, but if previously tackle assist must reposition as noted above
b) must remain on feet
c) if latches onto the ball prior to a ruck forming, may keep hands on the ball while ruck is on progress
d) if loses grip on ball, becomes just another rucker with no special privileges
e) when so required by Sir, must release the ball (likely only if he's unaware that a ruck formed before he got to the ball, or has lost contact for a moment and then regrasped the ball)
f) must leave the field when shown yellow or red card (usually happens twice every three games).

 

[Womble]

That was my in game "check list" Dixie but for sure , your list is far more complete for this forum xx

 

[Pegleg]

not quite - actually a tackled player is a ball carrier who is held and brought to ground [and then must be released]

Here's the Law
[LAWS]A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.

As you corrctly say: "Held and brought to ground" rather than "Brought to ground and held". An important difference!