[Law] Advantage after a PT offence

[DocY]

A situation I didn't see, but was told about and thought quite interesting:

Black make a break and about 5m from the goal line the BC commits the fullback and passes to a support player. The support player is pulled back early (and the infringing player was YC'd) so fails to catch the ball, but it is collected by a second support player who scores.

The bloke telling me this was incensed that it wasn't a PT (it was close to the end of the game and black were 5 points down).

So the question is: in principle, should it have been? Or was the referee right to play advantage and let the player score. The try was close to the touch line, so the PT was clearly a favourable outcome and had the obstructed player caught the ball he would have likely scored in a similar position.

 

[colesy]

A situation I didn't see, but was told about and thought quite interesting:

Black make a break and about 5m from the goal line the BC commits the fullback and passes to a support player. The support player is pulled back early (and the infringing player was YC'd) so fails to catch the ball, but it is collected by a second support player who scores.

The bloke telling me this was incensed that it wasn't a PT (it was close to the end of the game and black were 5 points down).

So the question is: in principle, should it have been? Or was the referee right to play advantage and let the player score. The try was close to the touch line, so the PT was clearly a favourable outcome and had the obstructed player caught the ball he would have likely scored in a similar position.

It would only be a penalty try if the try would have been scored in a more advantageous position but for the foul play. If by similar position, you mean similar to where the try was actually scored, then the ref made the correct decision.

 

[crossref]

So black were disadvantaged by the ref playing advantage.

Arguably the ref should have blown his whistle immediately for the foul play and awarded a PT, before black could cloud the issue by scoring anyway.

 

[DocY]

It would only be a penalty try if the try would have been scored in a more advantageous position but for the foul play. If by similar position, you mean similar to where the try was actually scored, then the ref made the correct decision.

That's why I mentioned the similar position.

But as crossref points out, the crux of the issue black were disadvantaged by the referee playing advantage. Likewise black would have benefited by knocking on.

I believe it all happened quickly enough that the ref didn't have chance to blow up before the try was scored, but I guess that's the other issue: a PT is now the most valuable score (even if you don't consider that it was before) so should advantage ever apply?

 

[crossref]

Accepting that it happened very quickly

A perfect performance would be that when black went over to score the ref would have paused for thought (think quick, blow slow) and then awarded a PT

That would be a very good referee , I think, to work that out clearly in real time, on the pitch, in that last minute scenario

 

[DocY]

Reminds me of a similar example: https://youtu.be/8GJ_T59lrbg?t=141

If he doesn't get the ball down the conversion is in front of the posts (before the law changed), if he does, it's from the touchline!

 

[jjrc]

I had a similar issue happen on the weekend. Red were chasing a kick into the 22, last blue player was getting nowhere and clearly tripped red taking him out the game. Another red player collects and they score in the corner.
I blew up immediately after the trip before the ball was gathered by red, my initial reaction was that I'd butchered their try scoring advantage even though I had decided YC & Pen Try.
What to you prioritise the process or the enjoyment for the player who could have scored they give it as cross ref suggests.

 

[SimonSmith]

You go back to Law.

What are the circumstances in which a PT can be awarded? Broadly, two:
1. Denial of a try by foul play.
2. Try being scored in a less advantageous than it would otherwise be scored by an act of foul play.

In the OP, the try is scored where it would otherwise have been scored. It doesn't fit the definition of the Law.

As for the advantage question: in the OP, play continued and the try was scored where it would otherwise have been scored. If you don't let play continue, then the reason for the try not being scored isn't the act of foul play, it's because of you

 

[crossref]

I think you go back to Law 7 , Advantage .

When the foul play occurs black is on a PT .
There is no possibility to gain advantage , so advantage should not be played.

It happened so quick that advantage was played by default.. but no advantage was gained (black did not get themselves to a position that was either tactically or territorially better than having the PK and therefore the PT

So no advantage gained
PT

 

[Phil E]

When the foul play occurs black is on a PT .
There is no possibility to gain advantage , so advantage should not be played.

Try running that past the try scorer.

 

[DocY]

Try running that past the try scorer.

TBH, I think you need to use a bit of judgement here.

I do believe (and maybe I'm wrong) that teams generally prefer to have a player score than be given a PT. But a) I suspect this to be more likely at lower levels (again, I have nothing to back this up, just a gut feeling) and b) if it means the difference between winning and losing would they still prefer it then?

 

[DocY]

something went wrong

 

[damo]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts if foul play by the opposing team prevents a probable try from being scored, or scored in a more advantageous position. A player guilty of this must be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] No conversion is attempted.[/FONT]
[/LAWS]
Did foul play stop a probable try from being scored? I think the answer to that question has to be no because a try was actually scored.

Did foul play stop a try from being scored in a more probably position? That would be up to the ref to decide, but based on the description in the OP this seems unlikely.

Therefore it seems to me that there is no case for there being a Penalty Try. Ironically if there was no other player there to catch the ball it may well have been a Penalty Try.

 

[crossref]

Try running that past the try scorer.

His team were five points down, close to the end of the game , Which do you think he would prefer : a PK and a PT and seven points, or be given the 'advantage' of a score in the corner, and a conversion attempt from the touchline

The fact that your sole contribution to the thread is a throwaway sarcastic comment suggests you haven't really understood the issue ?

I think it's a great question that deserves a considered answer

 

[DocY]

[LAWS]Ironically if there was no other player there to catch the ball it may well have been a Penalty Try.

This is exactly the point! As you say: ironic.

 

[Rich_NL]

You know what the player with the ball would prefer - the try, because that's what he chose. A player can always stop and put the ball down if they don't want to play advantage. Although you run the risk of having a ref who says a try could have been scored, so there's no PT.

As damo says, the conditions for a penalty try aren't met.

 

[Phil E]

The fact that your sole contribution to the thread is a throwaway sarcastic comment suggests you haven't really understood the issue ?

Hold back on the insults please, not required. My comment was neither sarcastic or throw away.
Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean you have to try and belittle them.

1. Safety
2. Enjoyment
3. Law

Where do you suppose scoring a try comes into that list? When did you last score a try and how did it feel?

I did read the OP, it simply says they were 5 points behind, there is no information on the resultant conversion or how good their kicker was, for all we know they could have been knocking penalties over all day. As in most questions we have some information, but rarely enough for a complete and unequivocal answer, we should always look at all possibilities and consider other options.

 

[crossref]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts if foul play by the opposing team prevents a probable try from being scored, or scored in a more advantageous position. A player guilty of this must be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] No conversion is attempted.[/FONT]
[/LAWS]
Did foul play stop a probable try from being scored? I think the answer to that question has to be no because a try was actually scored.

Did foul play stop a try from being scored in a more probably position? That would be up to the ref to decide, but based on the description in the OP this seems unlikely.

Therefore it seems to me that there is no case for there being a Penalty Try. Ironically if there was no other player there to catch the ball it may well have been a Penalty Try.

I understand that argument

But the other argument is

After the foul play occured was there any way in which it was possible for black to gain an advantage ?

The answer is No, black cannot gain advantage

so advantage should not be played

 

[Phil E]

I understand that argument

But the other argument is

After the foul play occured was there any way in which it was possible for black to gain an advantage ?

The answer is No, black cannot gain advantage

so advantage should not be played

They could have scored a try in a BETTER position than the position for the PT, like under the posts. That would have been an advantage..especially for the try scorer.

 

[DocY]

Although you run the risk of having a ref who says a try could have been scored, so there's no PT.

I'd expect any referee who did this to be lynched!