[Law] Advantage after time expired

[CliveG]

New ref this season so apologies if this a dumb question. I have searched this forum for an answer but I'm now more confused than ever, so....

Time is 80.01 - Red are 1 point up - Red knock on

Blue gather the ball - do I now play advantage until the ball next goes dead ?

At what point would I decide no advantage has come and therefore end the game ?

If blue don't gather the ball from Reds knock on after time has expired, do I end the game immediately so Red benefit from their 'error' - clearly if its a deliberate knock on then PK to blue and carry on, but if at least looks accidental ?

Would any of these things change if you have been asked about time left to play and responded by saying time has expired ?

 

[Dickie E]

Hi Clive & welcome to the fraternity!

Blue gather the ball - do I now play advantage until the ball next goes dead ?
Yes

At what point would I decide no advantage has come and therefore end the game ?
If Blue then offend (eg knock on) during the advantage period, you would blow the whistle, make a point of looking at your watch, and end the game. Of course, if Blue don't offend, you'd call 'advantage over' and the game continues until the next stoppage.

If blue don't gather the ball from Reds knock on after time has expired, do I end the game immediately so Red benefit from their 'error' - clearly if its a deliberate knock on then PK to blue and carry on, but if at least looks accidental ?
Yes. So, for example, Red knock on and Red regather - blow full time. But first make sure that there is zero chance of Blue getting the ball.
What can be trickier is if there is a situation such as a stationary maul. As sure as eggs, at the instant you blow the whistle, the ball will pop out

Would any of these things change if you have been asked about time left to play and responded by saying time has expired ?
No

 

[Christy]

New ref this season so apologies if this a dumb question. I have searched this forum for an answer but I'm now more confused than ever, so....

Time is 80.01 - Red are 1 point up - Red knock on
dont let score help decide any out come

Blue gather the ball - do I now play advantage until the ball next goes dead ?
as dickie said , yes

At what point would I decide no advantage has come and therefore end the game
this is different to a knock on , where you can go back for a scrum .
so as dickie said , unless they now also knock on , then blow whistle , game over
. If blue regather ball , shout advantage over ?????
However If the blue team you have given advantage to are under strong attack and they are struggling to keep immediate possesion of ball , just take a breather and let it play out .
If they can keep ball for maybe 1 or 2 phases and , they are able to play ,,i would call advantage over .

If they kicked ball away under pressure , from immediate knock on .And ball got regathered by opposition . I would blow up for same .
Its a judgement call , you will be able to call on day .
Remember if red knocks on , they cant be rewarded from blue , not being able to tactitacally or terrotorial make gains .



If blue don't gather the ball from Reds knock on after time has expired, do I end the game immediately so Red benefit from their 'error' - clearly if its a deliberate knock on then PK to blue and carry on, but if at least looks accidental ?

Would any of these things change if you have been asked about time left to play and responded by saying time has expired ?

good question .
The fact that if there was time for a scrum , or not .
Shouldnt have any bearing of how you feel advantage has been gained or not .
Remember , the team who knocked on , are not entitled to gain an advantage from the opposition team who didnt gain their entitled advantage .

Ill add .
If whilst advantage for knock is being played .
Dont relax your penalty advantage ,,if red offending team , were to now collapse a maul , go in off feet & material effect etc etc ..let blue know they now have penalty advantage ..
If its a mess , simply blow whistle . Give mark for penalty & go again .

 

[crossref]

I think it very much IS different after the whistle has gone , and depending on the score

In this scenario red knock on, and blue gather I would call adv over straight away as blue have gained the enormous tactical advantage of the game not ending ..

That would not be the case if time hadn't expired

 

[Rich_NL]

I say play advantage as for any other situation.

If you call it straight away, you risk the ball going backwards ten metres, getting knocked on by blue and red regather to score; if you were playing "normal" advantage, you'd blow up for no advantage and come back for the scrum (ending the game in this case) - so you run the risk of rewarding red for their mistake.

I certainly wouldn't referee it differently according to the score (although if it's 80-0 most players are probably just waiting for the final whistle).

 

[crossref]

If you are playing advantage to blue and they knock on, you can't play on. It has to be back for the scrum (and in this case game ends)

I think it would be very odd to ignore the time and the score
Red knock on, blue (one point behind) gather and attack, but twenty seconds later are still behind the gain line ... During the game you'd now say 'no adv , back to the scrum. If time has elapsed you should already have said adv over, as just continuing to play is the advantage they blue want and need

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

If you are playing advantage to blue and they knock on, you can't play on. It has to be back for the scrum (and in this case game ends)

I think it would be very odd to ignore the time and the score
Red knock on, blue (one point behind) gather and attack, but twenty seconds later are still behind the gain line ... During the game you'd now say 'no adv , back to the scrum. If time has elapsed you should already have said adv over, as just continuing to play is the advantage they blue want and need

The problem with this approach is you assume you know what the team wants/needs from the result. With bonus points/points difference/tries scored etc all potentially to be taken into account, I think there is a risk you over complicate things. And how far do you go? Say a Blue maul near the Red try line is marched all the way back to the Blue five metre - do you keep playing advantage just "in case" it pops out and Blue run and score? What if the ball pops out into the in-goal, Red jump on it to score before you can call advantage over?

I know that is reductio ad absurdium, but there is a broader risk you take trying to assess game situation rather than be consistent in application of advatnge.

 

[crossref]

I think you are overcomplicating it !

Yes, we can think of extraordinary scenarios , and if they happen act accordingly, but 99% of the time if blue are on point down and in possession they will want to keep going.
(And if they don't want to keep going they wouldn't have competed after the red knock on)

 

[Christy]

For me , a team who has advantage at any stage of game ( as in time ) . Dont need to get over gain line for advantage to be over ,, i dont beleive you would need to say no adbantage got .
They could of recycled ball in 3 rucks ,,gone across field & would pass as tactical advantage ..

A blue maul ,,on red try line ,,wouldnt be allowed to be marchec backwards ( use it or loose it ) . But i get your point thunder .

Remember ,,its only a knock on .
Not deliberate so no penalty .
The score for me cant be a factor .
The time is only relevant once whistle has gone .

 

[crossref]

But after 80 mins , one new type of tactical advantage is possible and has to be considered .. the tactical advantage of being able to continue to play, and the game not ending

 

[DocY]

I'm with crossref on this - in fact it even came up last season. I forget the colours, but the winning team knocked on in the last play (I'd made it clear it was the last play) and fly hacked the ball 10-15m down field where it was gathered by a losing player.

I immediately called advantage over and heard someone shout "why can't we have the scrum, sir?" "That'd be full time" "Oh yeah!"

For me, it comes down to benefiting from a mistake. Teams should benefit from good play, or at least not making mistakes. Winning the game because you can't hold on to a pass doesn't sit well with me - in fact (depending on the particular situation) it might cross my mind that it was deliberate.

 

[DocY]

New ref this season so apologies if this a dumb question. I have searched this forum for an answer but I'm now more confused than ever, so....

Welcome to the forum!

I must disagree with your first sentence, though. This is an excellent question!

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

But after 80 mins , one new type of tactical advantage is possible and has to be considered .. the tactical advantage of being able to continue to play, and the game not ending

So how long do you give blue in this scenario? Play advantage until they infringe, or until red gain possession?

The other option could be call advantage over, very quickly. So as soon as Blue gain possession, advantage is over. This still gives blue the freedom to play the ball as they wish in some regards, but it raises the risk red take possession, score and a 1pt loss becomes an 8pt loss...

 

[DocY]

So how long do you give blue in this scenario? Play advantage until they infringe, or until red gain possession?

The other option could be call advantage over, very quickly. So as soon as Blue gain possession, advantage is over. This still gives blue the freedom to play the ball as they wish in some regards, but it raises the risk red take possession, score and a 1pt loss becomes an 8pt loss...

For me, it's the second option - advantage over very quickly.

I deem that giving them the chance to win is sufficient advantage, but advantage does not extend to protecting their narrow loss.

 

[Phil E]

A team gaining possession of the ball after time is up have gained a massive advantage, since they can now decide whether to end the game or not.

 

[didds]

I see no reason to provide any more or any less advantage to a team than they would have received in the first minute..

didds

 

[crossref]

The scenario a few posts ago is a good one to illustrate
Red knock on, and then hoof the ball 50m down the pitch

In the first minute of the game you'd now have a scrum blue
In the eighty first minute of the game , with blue losing by one point surely
you would play advantage to give blue a chance to gather it, and if blue get possession, call adv over ...

 

[DocY]

I see no reason to provide any more or any less advantage to a team than they would have received in the first minute..

didds

It depends how you define 'advantage', but unless you're going to adopt a very strict "made so many metres" or "two passes" or whatever as your definition, the advantage you give is always going to change throughout the game.

In this example, merely getting possession is a much bigger advantage after 80 minutes than it would be in the first minute, simply because what it means to have possession changes. As Phil E says - you have the power to end the game or not, which you don't have at any other time.

 

[CliveG]

Very helpful chaps.

The reason for my question was that I just had a game with exactly this situation (although the knock on actually came during a line out which I had announced was 'last play' ). Reds, who were leading by less than 1 score,knocked on and I immediately blew for full time. So now I understand I diddled Blue, the losing team, out of the opportunity to win the game. :sad:

So, in future, I think my approach should be :

1. Don't announce 'last play' unless I have to - this gives me control and flexibility

2. If the game is not close (i.e. 80-0) then just end the game at the first game ending event (so not bothering with advantage)

3. if the game is close then play advantage

4. Call 'advantage over' immediately if Blue regather from the knock on, I definitely buy the logic from crossref, docy, phil e , that being given the opportunity to win is a clear advantage.

5. Keep playing until blue infringe (game ending event) - if red now get the ball back and score again (or more likely boot it in to touch), that's fine, at least blue had the opportunity to turn the score around.

The only thing I'm now not really comfortable with is the scenario where red knock on but then regather the ball themselves (not via a penalty infringement). As docy said, Red are now benefiting from their mistake, fine if the next score makes no difference, but just seems wrong if there is 1 point in it to win the league.

 

[crossref]

In general terms if red knock on and regather I think it's still possible to play advantage to blue .. for instance if this is 2m from the touchline and one red player is surrounded by three blue , I might well call adv and play on for a short time ..